m79 noobish weapon?

[EnEsCe]

Where would Soldat be without the annoying weapon-whoring noobs? They evolve into spray whores after awhile, then many many months later become normal players. They are the root of everything!

[Grim Killer]

TISK TISK, how can anyone possibly think that just because they have a good weapon, that their noobs, if the weapon is so easy to use, and it makes a noob into a good player, why dont you just get one and start killing everyone?

[popsofctown]

um, ur sentence is difficult to read.  but anyway, i think you are angry at the fact some ppl oppose the m79 just because it levels the playing field experience-wise.  that's not my issue with it, but it is some ppl's, and thats not a good reason to hate it

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Upon further thinking about m79ing...

I guess the m79 balances the game out in the sense that it can easily kill experienced players so that noobs newbs can have a chance. I guess that may be why I hate that gun so much. It's because I took so much time in learning to use the other weapons in the soldat arsenal, and new players took so little time to learn the use of m79, and still become adequate foes to myself when I use the other guns. It's a lot more satisfying fighting non-m79-using-players because I know they must have taken the time to learn the other guns, instead of learning the "point and click" gun.

You're wrong on two accounts there.  First of all, the M79 DOESN'T kill experienced players easily.  Experienced players know how to counter and avoid it.  Second, you assume you're experienced.  I've played with you before and (not trying to be a jerk here) you're not that great.  Sure, you may be better than lots of people, but that's only because new people play Soldat every day.  Pubs are a great place to find newbies, so doing well there does not make you experienced.  Oh yeah, one more thing.  "Point and click" guns take more skill to use than "point and spray" guns.


JonWood, I made a rant just for people like you: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=4318.0

But, to summarize the main point:

Every weapon is at an advantage in some situations and at a disadvantage in others.  For example, the m79 will defeat any auto, but the ruger will defeat the m79.  The shotgun will beat the ruger (at close range) but will be defeated by autos.  The barret is good for one kill, then the sniper is vulnerable.  The m79 kills in one hit, but it's easy to stay out of range, or to dodge when necessary.  The knife is good for one kill, but it has a short range and the act of firing leaves the bearer weaponless.  Once the minigun gets going, it will tear people apart, but once it gets going, it's harder to hit with it.

The weapons are balanced.  The question of balance occurs when new players (and many regular players) fail to recognize disadvantageous situations.  Of course you're going to die if you charge an m79 or shotgun.  Obviously you'll lose if you try to take on an auto with a binkable weapon.  That doesn't mean the weapons are unbalanced; it just means that you don't know how to make the best of your situation.  Experienced players take advantage of (or avoid) these mismatches, which is why they do much better.  Any weapon looks overpowered in the hands of an expert.  Any weapon looks weak in the hands of a novice.  You might be surprised at how often a new player will miss with the m79.  If he hits you one out of five times, the instakill will still be annoying.  But that doesn't mean the weapon is overpowered.

Again, the weapons are very well balanced.  Before you complain that a weapon is overpowered, try it out yourself.  Before you complain that a weapon is underpowered, look for people who constantly use that weapon.  Don't you think they have a reason for making it their primary?  Lastly, experiment with new tactics.  Learn how to avoid the instakill shots.  Learn how to avoid self-bink.  Learn which weapons are best against others.  But please, stop complaining that the weapons are unbalanced.

And now I'll address your complaints, point by point:

I'll use an experience I had a few days ago in CTF_Ash to explain why I hate the M79. So I'm playing CTF, I am on red team. I use the Mp5 a lot since Ash is small.  Anyway, the blue team is a bunch of M79ers.

First error: using MP5 against the M79.  Logically, a short range weapon with high damage is better than a short range weapon with low damage.  Try to use longer range weapon next time, like the Ruger or AK-74.

They get the flag, then they hole up in their base. If I get their flag and go low, BOOM, they shoot through the floor. I'm dead. if I go up. BOOM. I'm dead before I even had a chance. And going through the base? Forget it.

Second error: trying to capture the flag alone in a TEAM game.  Your teammates are often available to give you covering fire or to take a hit.  Wait a bit before running through no mans land.

So then I decide to try to get the flag carrier. I go into the base, shoot the guy with the MP5, and he grabs a medkit, and blasts me with the M79. Now can anyone see ANYTHING wrong with the picture so far?

Yes.  You find fault in the fact that defenders have an advantage.  Sorry, but that's the way CTF works.
Third error: failing to dodge the m79 shot.  Believe me, it's not that hard to do.

So I keep trying and trying.

Fourth error: continuing to use a strategy that obviously doesn't work.  If you're getting killed and you can't do anything, try a different weapon or strategy.

Eventually I get in the base and get lucky and blast the M79er to heck and return the flag before one of the others blows me away. Then they grab the flag and do it again. If I spawn, a few M79ers would spawnkill me. If I am anywhere near one, they would kill me before I could even fire enough shots require to kill them. That's the problem with the M79. It's a 1 hit kill. So let me go back through the story and point out how the M79 is overpowered.

Remember what I said about dodging?  That would have been a good time to do so.  Remember, you're invincible at first, so you have some time.

First, lets talk about the little incident where I got blown to kingdom come when going low. No one was in the lower tunnel except me. They were in the base. They fire DOWN at me through the floor. BOOM. Dead before I even knew what hit me. Now could that be done with any other weapon except the barret?

Yes.  The grenade.  People do that all the time.

Unlikely. You might damage them, but there is no way (unless you use grenades and get lucky) that you can just kill someone by shooting a weapon down into the tunnel, unless of course, you use the M79 (or barret, but that's MUCH harder, and if they barreted me from that position, they deserve that kill). Same thing with above, they may get some hits on me, but not kill me (unless theyre really good).

Fifth, horrible, glaring error.  You assume you're good at Soldat.  It takes very little talent to drop a grenade in front of someone in the area you're talking about.  It also takes very little talent to kill someone on the top of the map.  You imply that you're skilled enough to avoid fast-moving bullets, but your actions and complaints indicate you can't dodge a slow-moving M79 shell.  I can only assume that you've played with inexperienced people in the past who can't aim with a normal weapon.

Okay. Point number two. My base assaults. I go into the base, I shoot them, they grab medkits, and then kill me one hit. Now lets go over this. Is it fair that I can shoot over and over and over again and not harm them because they have medkits?

Of course it's fair that they can heal.  Why do you think the medkits are there?

It would be fine if I could grab a medkit, but I cant, because if they shoot me, I'M DEAD. How is that fair? Out of the dozen+ time's I've tried to get the flag, I only succeeded twice, and that was because I was lucky.

The key word here is "if".  Yes, they kill you, but only IF they hit you.  As I said before, it's very easy to dodge an M79.  Another thing.  Why do you think the EFC hides inside his base instead of directly on the flag area?  It's because that makes him HARD TO KILL.  You didn't fail because there were M79s.  You failed because he was well-defended.  More on this shortly.

Sure, I was outnumbered like 2 or 3 to 1, but still, I wouldve done better if they were using autos or something.

That's where you're wrong.  They would have killed you, then they would have restored any hitpoints they lost in the fight, because as you said, there are medkits in the base.

Point 3. Spawnkills. Try doing that with a non-1 hit kill weapon. You might damage me, but hey, I can just come back and shoot you. But not if it's the M79. I get shot, I'm dead before I even have a chance to move. I dont mind spawnkills in themselves, but hey, I'm talking about 1 hit kills here.

It's not a spawnkill if they don't do it right away.  One-hit kills are what make spawnkilling both possible and annoying. 

And there you have it. If the guy was using a barret, some of those shots were possible, but they would be a little harder. Sure, if they miss, theyre screwed....oh wait, secondaries *get knifed*. I think the M79 needs to be nerfed, maybe make it more binkable or something. It needs SOMETHING to make it a weaker weapon.  Otherwise it's just too easy to use, especially in small maps.

The same applies to the M79.  If they miss, they're screwed.  The key is to make them miss.  And is the M79 easy to use, or are you an easy target?  There is a difference.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

I think we should shorten the range of the m79, even by only 10 speed would make a difference, that way the m79 can still be used as a lethal weapon, but hopefully the people using it will eventually require a more long range weapon and wean themselves off of the m79 and on to a gun that requires more skill, that they hopefully acquired when they used the m79.

If there is any adjustment needed, that should be it.

So basically you're saying that the m79 should be a training weapon and eventually become completely useless to everyone, simply because you don't like being killed with it? Ingenious.

Also, the one thing people complain about most is the point blank shots. Nerfing the range would only make this happen more.

The m79 is easy to counter, people. Try using a different strategy against it, or you're being just as bad as the people you're claiming are noobs because they keep using the m79.

I use the m79 occasionally, but usually in combination with a shotgun or auto. I really can't believe people whining, really makes you wonder if they've ever actually played; the m79 is incredibly easy to counter. Makes a nice secondary, too, once you've obliterated the previous user with  one if its numerous weaknesses.

Yes, it's nearly unbeatable in certain spots. So is just about every other weapon in the game. If you really think it's THAT unfair, try using it yourself and see the annoyances involved.

[decoy.]

Hmm...a noobish weapon? I've seen alot of excuses provided as to why it's been called noobish when it just seems that those complaining were incapable of adapting to the difficulty that the weapon itself presented. I am not speaking on behalf of being a habitual m79 user. It's an alright weapon but I would not give claim to it being the best. As mentioned by a few, it is not the sharpest tool in the bunch but if you understand well enough on how to use it than one should understand well enough on how to defend against what they can use.

I've also had my share of encounters with m79 users on the opposing team and have dealt with them using either the same weapon or a select several of different weapons. Know that the shot you take does not always have to be the shot to kill. Aiming to kill with the m79 isn't or should not always be one's aim while using it. That's how alot tend to get caught, victim and suspect.

Now with the use of the m79, it like it's counterpart the barret, leaves the user vulnerable to alot given that they have yet to replace their secondary weapon with something useful or make good use of their own secondary.

I make use of the splash damage to compensate for my systemps poor frame rate production, which usually bats about an average of 10 fps. This way, by the shock of it's impact (even if indirect) I can use it to make an escape while disorienting others. I also make use of it to amplify the damage done with granades that I'll toss out to an unsuspecting victim. Then I'll be the one to fire where the granades were laid to rest. But rarely do I use the m79 for close range attacks unless I chose to return the flag single handedly and fake one of my own to hit a wall below or behind a flag carrier to deliver some degree of damage. Then I use my socom to do the rest of the work for me.

Alot would use the rationale that I make lucky shots when I'm just use to how it's able to deliver and at what angle it can catch someone with. I use it to move sniper and law users from the ground if they try to catch me with a shot. Regardless if my shot doesn't kill them, it will at least cause them harm or spare me the shot intended to take my player's life. It's also good for a backup tool as well as a strategic tool, fire where they are set to land, not where they were last seen. Sorry for any bit of rambling done here. My mind is kind of divided along many a thin lines. Just unorganized thought patterns.

Just don't rule out the possibility of vulnerable points of an m79 user. There are more than alot notice. And the weaknesses of the m79 are what I use as my strengths. It is why I dislike weapon mods of any kind to inhance the m79's abilities. It throws me off too much.

[Sytrus]

I actually see the m79 as a noob weapon, just because I only met noobs using it so far. It's a good weapon for newbs to start with, but usually then you keep on using it and get focused on only that one weapon, wich makes you a noob.

Somebody already said it, it's a very bad thing in CTF and INF. 10 People camping at the flag and the EFC has no chance to escape.

The usual arguments for it are:

1.You have to calculate how it will fly!
Well, I don't think so, sorry. You may have certain cases when you have to think about the curve it'll take when it's in the air, but this is not much actual calculating, because of the area damage it has. Even if you don't hit the opponent right on his head, he'll be blown away anyways, at least injured and boosted somewhat. It's not calculating, it's more guessing. And if you miss, the 3 seconds of reloading are still long enough to get a second shot, wich also leads to my next argument:

2. You have to reload, wich takes 3 seconds!
Yup, that's right. It does take three seconds. But what are those three seconds in it's usual way of use; camping? If you just blew the enemy right off your flag, it'll take more than 3 seconds for the next guy to come run on. Three seconds are not enough I think, they are leading for using the M79 in the hot battle for suicide bombings and stuff. Three seconds are gone away fast by going behind your teammates and letting them protect you.

3. Sometimes, it doesn't automatically kill you with one shot!
Easy thrown off: Sometimes. But most of the times it does. Also it appears to have a ungodly huge binking effect, wich throws a lot of players off.

4. I have the danger on me, to blow myself away!
Suicide bombing is the word........wait, are the two words. It works well for bombing a lane for your mates to go through.



So after all, I really dislike the M79, it would be way better if it had more reload time I think.

It is why I dislike weapon mods of any kind to enhance the m79's abilities. It throws me off too much.

That's what's the point with it, you get focused on it and you loose the ability (or don't even gain it] to be good with other weapons.

[Red Neck]

the way i see it is these key points: M79 shells are really slow you cant dodge them then your no better off than the one who uses it
M79 are easy to counter with the LAW

[Sytrus]

the way i see it is these key points: M79 shells are really slow you cant dodge them then your no better off than the one who uses it
M79 are easy to counter with the LAW

woah you're not serious right?
The LAW needs to be shot from prone or crouch, and it takes WAY longer to reload....

[iDante]

m79... thats a fun weapon hehe.
I think that small maps like Arena2 and ratcave are teh reason people hate the m79, because on maps bigger than that, it is largely inferior to other weapons.
A lot of people think that dodging m79 is easy, which would be true if there was no lag. by the time you notice that he has fired the nade is almost on top of you, you backflip sucessfully and to you it looks like you dodged but to to the server it was a hit... not impossible though, it you dodge before he fires. then you get lauched into the air, you pull out your saw, AND EAT HIM! rawr....

[Skiessi]

Summarizing: M79 is the best weapon.

Edit: I mean, M79 is a good weapon.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

It is why I dislike weapon mods of any kind to enhance the m79's abilities. It throws me off too much.

'That's what's the point with it, you get focused on it and you loose the ability (or don't even gain it] to be good with other weapons.'

He's not saying it decreases his skill with other weapons, he's just saying it makes him not as good with the m79. I'm not even going to bother trying to argue, as all the good points that would prove to any non-biased person that the m79 is fair have already been pointed out.

The majority of people posting in opposition to the m79 use the exact same ideas, over and over again, and seemingly ignore what is said to the contrary.

So, instead of arguing, I'm just going to ask that before you complain, read some of the posts again.





Sheez...





*EDIT* Why do I get the feeling my 0 karma is the result of yet another m79-hating Major(1)...

[Mr. Domino]

Somebody already said it, it's a very bad thing in CTF and INF. 10 People camping at the flag and the EFC has no chance to escape.

If you and your ten player team aren't smart enough to choose just about any other weapon and spray those M79 campers in your example for an easy score and dominate the map, then you had no chance of winning in the first place.

[Tribersman-FR]

The M79 don't really annoy me unless it's in a really impossible way like a vertical tunnel where the grenage won't work by the up and it don't exist weapon to use from the down side.


But I'm completly agree with Sytrus on this point.

- Aim is not really hard, large explosion at the ground don't have to worry about aim the head.
- 3second is really short for a weapon like that


but after that, the M79 isn't the perfect weapon in all small map.

In a tin tunnel the range is really limited and even with a law in secondary it's not the perfect match.

The Shell is really slow in a large map so you can dodge the bullet if you are far enough.


But with his short reload time we don't have the time to kill him even with a perfect MP5 accuracy.
The Desert eagle is hard to use because you need to hit 3 times of 5 shoot and really need skill.

All other auto aren't powerfull enough to finish someone in 3 seconds.


To solve the problem I only ask to increase the reload time with 1 second.

[Sytrus]

2 seconds, or it won't work I think. The autos lost so much of their power during the weapon balancing, it's hard to kill somebody that fast, if he has nades, he'll pwn you anyways.

[Tribersman-FR]

Most of player can't do mid-air with the grenade they aren't unlimited, and let enough time to escape from them on the ground.

And you have Grenade too.


Even if the M79 is for the moment overpowered, we don't need to make it the useless weapon of the world.


Try to move faster ... there is only good player who can hit a fast target with a M79
And stay far from the M79 is also a good idea.

I use to fly aroung sniper and to sprint directly on M79 both with chainsaw.
the 2 method make you difficult to aim.

[Sytrus]

Well, not the useless of the world, but at least possible to kill if they dont miss twice.

And it's also a....let's say decent idea to stay very close to the m79 so he kills himself also. Is good in team-based games.

[Cato269]

M79 is really only usefull if its a 1 v 1 situation at the time of use. try going into a dm and winning with a m79. now, unless everyone else is useing a m79, and it's a m79 war, your going to have fun acomplishing that =D

personaly, i think the m79 is fine. I tend to avoid it for that exact reason if theres more than one person in the area, your screwed, unless they take more than 3 seconds to kill you, and in that case, they aren't good players anyway, assuming they aren't a m79'er or a barretter.

[Sytrus]

Oh no, you're wrong. It's really not easy to kill somebody who is moving around in 3 seconds, absolutely wrong, the weapoons are too weak nowadays. And the m79 is also used in else than 1v1 situations, and works good there (Suicide bombs as an example) to blow your teams lane open.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Just stay away from the m79 user. Unless they're incredibly good with it (and that's not the kind you're whining about) they're some of the easiest player types to kill; right up there with secondary users