Balance vs. Spray

[Clawbug]

Yeah. But then again, there is no time to start dodging the bullets or hiding, as your enemies are rusking at you and your base with full speed. Only effective thing would be spraying back, but I'd rather quit playing than start to spray. ;s

[SDFilm]

If they are rushing at you, then they will soon be on screen if they arn't already.

[Clawbug]

If they are rushing at you, then they will soon be on screen if they arn't already.

Yes, and then I would be wounded about that 20% of my health. Then I would need to deal more tahn 20% more damage to them that they deal to me. It becomes hard if the enemy has even some kind of 1v1 experience. ;s

[Demonic]

And 20% being the situation when you're only getting sprayed by one enemy. Often they dual up, which means 40-60% health loss by the time you even reach them.

And dodge? We're lacking a dimension for that. Not much space to dodge in most circumstances, ( think of the map structures.. main route on Laos, lower way on Voland, Nuubias tunnel areas, Ash's bottleneck corners ) because the whole space of the route you're taking could be filled with two soldiers on top of each other.

[Sytrus]

The point is: If you lower the damage of bullets when they're offscreen, this'll do nothing against spraying. Because your opponent then will have no chance to close in, because as soon as he gets on your screen he'll be wounded normally. If you dont want spray at all, then why not take all weapons out and leave the chainsaw,the knives and ppure fists in?

And trenchwar are no "random public servers", shows how much know how you have -_-

[5th_account]

Twisting that, a damage increase in 500% for bullets off screen wouldn't affect spraying popularity either?

And no one cares about trenchwar

[Demonic]

Sytrus, to us, trenchwars ARE random publics. Challange is the same as botmatch. We spray and we can dominate. The thing is, that needs to be changed.

And how does lowering bullet damage offscreen not rule out spraying? I mean, people could still spray, but it would be much less effective and much easier to counter. Last I checked skill was about hitting your enemy, not bombarding an area with undodgable raining death.

Also wtf is with Clawbugs low karma. *applauds*

[Clawbug]

For me, trenchwar are random public servers, which I do not play in. As long as the game is team-based, I do not play it in publics. Nothing is more irritaring that when your teammates can not do anything, just whine how opponents are noob hackers and such. Deathmatch is more fun, when there is like 6 noobs, and then one about with same skill, so it turns out a noob-slaughter -mode.

Date Posted: February 04, 2007, 03:39:11 PM

Also wtf is with Clawbugs low karma. *applauds*

I say things maybe too direclty towards people. ;P Im sorry if I offended anybody, was not meant to.

[Sytrus]

Yeah, go play your pussy ctf, but If you lower the OSD of autos, you also have to do that with every other weapon, wich would make spraying not easy to counter.

[Demonic]

Pussy ctf? Care to back up your words? If you're desperate for a fight, we can get a team together that's willing to play your "pro" game of trenchwar and mop the floor with you.

And it is mere logic that all weapons osd will get lowered - and according to our tests, it just makes spraying easier to counter, as people will be facing each other on equal grounds when they fight on the same screen, regardless of previous spraying.

[J-Factor]

Yeah, go play your pussy ctf, but If you lower the OSD of autos, you also have to do that with every other weapon, wich would make spraying not easy to counter.

Because clearly the best way to counter spray is to shoot a few ruger rounds offscreen in the hopes of hitting someone, right?

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with offscreen bullet damage being lowered. That's pretty much the definition of spray - trying to shoot someone you can't see. Also, I play trenchwar servers too - spray is not meant to be part of it. Spray is only prominent in trenchwars because the maps are so flat and simplistic. Once spray is fixed there will be a lot more tactics involved - perhaps a bit more than the usual "sit on a hill and hold the mouse button".

[Sytrus]

Listen:
Spraying, contrary to popular belief, is not at all a lame thing to do. In fact, Not spraying is both counter intuitive and crippling to most efforts at holding a position. The main reason spraying is frowned upon is because most players don't understand how to take advantage of sprayers. Sprayers are beacons and easy targets. Any good player can easily follow the tracer, and with a bit of terrain knowledge, shoot the enemy down. Remember, a sprayer cannot see you, but you can "see" him.

The terrain in Trenchwar is varied, and most teams usually want to get to some central high point. from there, gravity is working with you and virtually all weapons are effective for spraying, making it a desireable location for all players (not to mention the easier headshots). This is why players need to understand the tactical differences between weapons. The MP5 for example has short range, meaning the bullets fired from it move slowly and therefore fall earlier. This means that when shooting upward, your bullets won't reach as far, curving downwards much more quickly than, say, a Steyr Aug. The tactical advantage of the MP5 is shooting inside high up holes, shooting over the curve of a mountain, and for the better shooters, shooting the heads that poke out behind crates. The weapons with higher power, that is, that shoot further, are excellent for covering great distances, and shooting through long tunnels, where weapons with low power will be ineffective at long range.

http://wiki.soldat.nl/Trenchwar

That's what I mean, read the bold text.

[5th_account]

Spraying isn't only defined as standing/hovering still in one spot shooting a ray of bullets in a random direction outside the screen. A true sprayer in a clanwar often takes great advantage in having his foe visible at the bottom edge of the screen, giving himself both altitude and distance in between. You can't just shoot him down that easily. He will move back and up ensuring that great distance as you move towards him in an always more predictable and slowed-down fashion due to the push. By the time your bullet reaches him it will have traveled far over a screen's distance, and since you're moving towards him his will travel for way less than a screen. It requires a hundred times more training to pick down an enemy that's moving away from you rather than towards you.

How can I take advantage of that? His motive is to become a hard target and you an easy one.

[Sytrus]

Spraying isn't only defined as standing/hovering still in one spot shooting a ray of bullets in a random direction outside the screen. A true sprayer in a clanwar often takes great advantage in having his foe visible at the bottom edge of the screen, giving himself both altitude and distance in between. You can't just shoot him down that easily. He will move back and up ensuring that great distance as you move towards him in an always more predictable and slowed-down fashion due to the push. By the time your bullet reaches him it will have traveled far over a screen's distance, and since you're moving towards him his will travel for way less than a screen. It requires a hundred times more training to pick down an enemy that's moving away from you rather than towards you.

How can I take advantage of that? His motive is to become a hard target and you an easy one.

Well, then it wouldnt get you anything to lower the weapons osd right? Right.

And as said in the wiki, the andvantage about the "avarage" sprayer is that you can easylie follow the tracer and calculate where the bullets are coming from - BANG.

[Demonic]

Lowering the osd would solve the previous problem which Clawbug mentioned, and players would face each other with equal health on the same screen, as opposed to what happens now if someone chooses to spray for victory.

Also, we're in a misunderstanding. Your definition of a sprayer is a noname newbie who gets mauled by easy tricks and blindshots. Our definition of sprayer means a guy who has played plenty clanwars and could beat the crap out of nearly anyone you have ever played with.

( No, I'm not joking. You may find this to come off as cocky, but who can you blame, when that's the truth ¬_¬ )

[Morik]

The only thing that I know, is that the minigun is a VERY viable weapon and should not be alot more powerful in the next version. Just ask anyone who plays a gather against Freeze. With him using a minigun its, like, impossible to get a positive ratio against him. The only reason why the minigun is not a mainstream weapon is because no one uses it. If you use it alot, you get really good with it, kinda like the barret.

If the weapon is powered-up like everyone says it will be, you will never hear the end of the complaining of the minigun.

[xurich]

Indeed, the Minigun can be quite powerful in the right hands. Driven Under is pretty decent with it as well. I still think that it needs a slight boost though.

[Sytrus]

No way, the minigun should stay as it is. If you boost it, this will make it already overpowered imo, because It'll get very poweerful to spray with it.

[ChromedGun]

And no one cares about trenchwar

Incorrect -.- It seems to be that no one of you have played Trenchwar (besides Sytrus and J-Factor) It is quite clear that you haven't had the thrill of rolling away from a rain of bullets to hide behind a crate the size of your soldat. Also, sprayers haven't really been a problem to me. It's easy to hear what gun he's using, then based on that you can see where the bullets hit the ground and then you can have an idea about where he is. Really. I've LAW'ed many sprayers in the Trenchwar-games I've played. Sprayers aren't really that of a problem. Unless your name is Forrest Gump and you broke your arm.

[Sytrus]

Plus, if less spraying = more sniping.

So now that you can't outspray snipers, more people will whine about the Barrett.