Fun, or fooling yourself?

[Espadon]

Recent events have lead me to really consider what is really the right course of action to take with games, especially in areas in which the community is involved in creating works for others to enjoy. More specifically, criticism and how it affects the direction in which the community goes in.

On one hand is the argument that 'it's a game, and everyone should enjoy it.' Obviously the nicely Utopian view, where everyone is a nice guy that always showers everyone else with nice words of encouragement.
The other argument though is somewhat like 'if you're going to do it, do it well.' This includes possibly harsh criticism in order to induce the "well."

Whilst it may appear on the surface that the two arguments are not mutually exclusive, in reality they often are; the Utopian argument creates a delusion so that when suddenly faced with the latter 'realistic' argument, it results in conflict, because 'medicine never tastes good' and the best advice oftentimes is the most painful [ElephantHunter's post is an excellent example].
I'm all for the realistic argument based on my belief that it's necessary for the community to quickly advance in terms of quality. The Utopian argument always leads to stagnation and is detrimental to the quality of the community because the failures are not dealt with, either by helping them improve or otherwise.

Discuss.

[a-4-year-old]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Espadon]

A question that relates to "why the hell is SF going downhill?"

[a-4-year-old]

I think it may be because people cannot articulate a logical flowing post.

[Hair|Trigger]

Maybe it's the immature people who play soldat.  I mean thats how I started out.  probably still am    : '(

[Espadon]

I think it may be because people cannot articulate a logical flowing post.

How is it illogical? I presented the two arguments, then a minor explanation for clarification before presenting my opinion. If it's grammatical, then please do point out the mistakes and I'll revise so to be more readable.

[a-4-year-old]

You just went off on tangents and never made your point clear.

[Pie]

That's not the reason SF is going downhill...

I'm a member of many other sites, Roosterteeth, Theescapist and they are doing rather well.
Now roosterteeth is full of morons and immature people and it thrives because it is such a comunity based website.

The escapist is a more mature website, where you've got to at least post coherent sentences or be banned completely. It's to a mature audience it is doing fairly well because the people there don't flame every post, they actually argue. Insults and harsh words are almost never posted, people don't post stupid links and the mods are fairly friendly.

It's possible that the reason that SF is going downhill is because a lot of members dislike eachother for one reason or another, and with this dislike they immediately destroy the persons post without posting a legitimate argument, that is if the thread is arguable.

So i guess my answer would have to be that because SF is what i would consider an immature forum and that everyone is so intent on making people either laugh, or cry(Or laugh at the person crying.)
Sure cracking jokes is great, but cracking jokes every. single. post. is not funny.
So i guess it's lack of serious topical discussion in my opinion.

[a-4-year-old]

Yeah, remember back in the day were everyone all hated the same person? I wish paramud was here to make fun of.

[tehsnipah]

Yeah, remember back in the day were everyone all hated the same person? I wish paramud was here to make fun of.

well, instead of him, you use me now D:

A question that relates to "why the hell is SF going downhill?"

i personally think is because there are so many people agreeing on a same thing, that the SF won't have that much topic to argue about.

[The Philanthropist]

I hate to keep pulling this card out, and I afraid of sounding like some geezer waving his cane at the kiddies, BUT, at the forum I used to moderate, I was in charge of the graphic design section. We had people that were going to make a career out of their photoshop work, and we had people who barely had a sense of colour coordination posting.

Naturally, some people got frustrated with the quantity and quality of work that some of the less gifted users put out. The harsher they got, the more afraid the new users were to post their stuff. The more praising the posts were, the more arrogant they got.

Middle ground? Easy to find. A review/critique generall should go like this:

1. Overall Feel, either you did or didn't like it
2. Something they did well
3. Something they didn't do well
4. Something they could change
5. Something they should look into in the future.

It's not hard, just put some thought into it. In the end the only thing that matters is the time spent on the work. Was the process enjoyable for the artist?

But this seems less and less like it's about the community Assuming what EH said was true, who gives a flying feck if your art takes 3 hours for you to draw a simple picture, if you enjoy it, do it. Worrying about the criticism of others matters only if you want to be accepted by others (IE: Get a career in it).

The direct solution to your answer is to suck it up and take the criticism, and take the praise.

EDIT: If you think SF is going downhill the stop talking about it going downhill and post something worthwhile.

[excruciator]

I am not sure where you are getting at. If I understand it right, You are saying that there are two ways of doing things, one is the optimistic, carefree and fun, just for the pure enjoyment/entertainment. The second is the competitive, either you be the best at what you do or don't do it. I'd say those 2 options are available not only for games, but is also available for everything you do.
Personally I go mostly with the second option,  but if it takes a lot of boring, repetitive work, or if I just plainly hate the process,I would just go and have fun, do things in my own way but I'll still come to the top.

Hope that I'm not too far away from what this topic is about.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Games? As in game development?

Well, whatever...I can kind of figure out what you're getting at, even if I'm not sure what the exact situation is.  You want to know what's the best way to deal with people looking for feedback on less-than-spectacular creations.  Assuming that's what you're asking, here's my advice.

Tell them exactly how you feel.  Don't try to be patronizing, but don't be a jerk either.  If something is bad, say so.  Don't mince words.  If something is good, be sure to let them know.  Also, make sure that you indicate that your appraisal is relative to some ideal.  Explain why it's good or bad, and explain what they should be shooting for (if they don't already know).  This way they'll know exactly what to improve, instead of just hearing, "Your work is bad.  Try harder."

The Utopian view that you mentioned is foolish.  The world is about results, not about pleasing people.  People will never get better if you tell them that they're doing great every step of the way.  People who are only looking for praise shouldn't get it unless their work truly is noteworthy.  If someone decides to quit because of a bad review, that's their problem, not yours.  The desire to excel is an important one, and if they don't have it, mindless praise isn't going to change that.

EDIT: Also, never say "Discuss."  I hate that.  What do you think we're going to do, read your post and just leave because no one told us to talk about it?

[STM1993]

While being silly and having fun, remember to be serious and critical when need be.

Similarly, when you comment, you not only encourage the person to do better or keep up the good of his work, you must also point out the bad points, and if necessary, in a very critical manner. Take gaming for a good example.

Sure, games are for fun, but games can also be treated as a challenge. If not, then why are there clans and clan wars? They are not just for fun, they are also a form of competition that provides challenge to players, and players would then want to improve all the time while having a good game. I strongly believe that everyone should have fun, but also point out mistakes and good points to help improve on the person, so that not only the person can have a more fun time in gaming, but also be able to fulfill the desire of other players who are looking for a challenge for any reason.

Otherwise, what's the point? You won't have fun, you won't enjoy yourself, you don't improve, and ultimately you fail because you make the same mistakes over and over again.

[Fluffy]

Always remember rule number one: it's more important to be tough than to have ANY fun.

[M.rSnow]

I have been pretty tired lately (gettin taller). So i haven't been able to get any jokes up (though I'm absolutely not the main source of entertainment)
In springdays there's much more fun i suppose.
We need more of these:
Edit: too dizzy to read your post *snore*
I think the smartest people on earth are those who are stupid and happy. "Ignorance is a blessing"
So i try enjoying my self whit stuff that doesn't require any thinking at all. Like weebl's site
Point:You guys think to much. There for you do not have fun. were only gonna be here on earth until were about 80+. (average life span in Sweden)

Sure happy people seem immature. But who's the smarted half. The wise and unhappy or the silly and happy.
I hope I'm somewere in between.

Always remember rule number one: it's more important to be tough than to have ANY fun.

o_0
Totally rejects all my belief's.

Date Posted: April 14, 2008, 06:01:17 pm

Sure, games are for fun, but games can also be treated as a challenge. If not, then why are there clans and clan wars? They are not just for fun, they are also a form of competition that provides challenge to players, and players would then want to improve all the time while having a good game.

My big brother dosn't see at games that way (playing under the name "Xemnas" lamer whit sniper Most of the time seen at [Ec]Hexermod )

He has told me that his dream game is a game that he totaly rules all players in the entire game. So your theory aboute what gamers want might be wrong. Some people might just want to rule others.

[Graham]

A question that relates to "why the hell is SF going downhill?"

It's always been filled with idiots. The older folks just remember the smart/funny and forgot about the endless amount of crap that was poured out on a daily basis. In all honesty, its not going downhill besides the people that are preaching the apocalypse. The more people twat and moan about nothing the more the community declines.

To sum up my point: We had a multipage debate about toilet padding. (Putting TP in the water so you don't get splashed.)

[Fluffy]

That wasn't long ago.

[O.R.I.O.N.]

So, what's the moral to this little story? Failure is contagious?

[a-4-year-old]

To sum up my point: We had a multipage debate about toilet padding. (Putting TP in the water so you don't get splashed.)

And we still don't know if dead guys can keep a stiffy.