Most Unbalanced Weapon (for version 1.5)

[-Major-]

even if you can't move with it... few people move while spraying, so this would just be e walking death machine.... just keep it as it is and remove 1 or 2 damage, or make the fire interval +2 and add like 1-2 damage.

It will be a death machine, yes. But not a walking one. ;O
In most cases spray is a pathetic noobish "tactic" that will make you die a stupid death.

that would be a 1.433x dps buff to the minimi (I was gonna say 1.5 before I made the maths).... it also has a 115% (the moddified version) efficiecy when it comes to headshots compared to steyr (slower more fire rate and more accurate gun, makes it easier to hit the head, and every bullet does more damage.... hitting 2 hs is harder than hitting 1 hs).
so my guess that it would be 1.5x stronger than it is now was quite accurate... having a weapon that is more than 1.5x as strong as all the other weapons is just retarded. (now ruger is ofc the best weapon in theory, but doesn't work like that in practical use)

before suggesting absurd things, try to play the game and do the maths behind it.


also, weapons aren't affected by selfbink before the 4th bullet (the 4th bullet will go off). does anyone know what the difference between moveacc=1 and moveacc=0 is?

anyway, here's my idea of a good wm, moveaccless. it's not perfect but I think it's quite close to perfect. a possible solution for the minimi would be to add like 3-4 moveacc and add 1 dmg (so that it is as the current wm).
if (moveacc= 1) = (moveacc= 0) then just take +1 movement acc on all the modified weapons.

// Deagles      moveacc -1, dmg +1
// HK MP5       moveacc -1
// Ak           moveacc -2, bink -23
// Steyr        moveacc -2, dmg -1, ammo +5, bink -3
// Spas         moveacc -1, speed -1
// Ruger        moveacc -3, bink +7
// M79          moveacc -3
// Barret       moveacc -7, dmg +100505, fireinterval +10, startup +25
// Minimi       moveacc -3, dmg -1, bink -23 (the dmg -1 might require more reload for steyr and AK (about +15 or so))
// Minigun      Moveacc -1
// Socom        moveacc -1
// Knife        --
// Chainsaw     moveacc -1, fireinterval -1, reload -60 dmg +1000, speed -26
// LAW          moveacc -1, reload -30, startup -2

also as an attachment...

[STM1993]

There's a slight difference between movementacc 1 and 0. I personally can't see the difference and I'd consider it negligible, but it's there.

a possible solution for minimi would be to add like 3-4 moveacc and add 1 dmg

// Deagles      moveacc -1, dmg +1
// HK MP5       moveacc -1
// Ak           moveacc -2, bink -23
// Steyr        moveacc -2, dmg -1, ammo +5, bink -3
// Spas         moveacc -1, speed -1
// Ruger        moveacc -3, bink +7
// M79          moveacc -3
// Barret       moveacc -7, dmg +100505, fireinterval +10, startup +25
// Minimi       moveacc -3, dmg -1, bink -23 (the dmg -1 might require more reload for steyr and AK (about +15 or so))
// Minigun      Moveacc -1
// Socom        moveacc -1
// Knife        --
// Chainsaw     moveacc -1, fireinterval -1, reload -60 dmg +1000, speed -26
// LAW          moveacc -1, reload -30, startup -2

(you forgot to add the +1 dmg into the DEs, the +25 to the 25 startup, and reload 0 is bugged.)
Major flaw: all weapons that have no bink or have self-bink(because it only occurs from 4th automatic shot, tapping not counted) is essentially 100% accurate since there's no movementacc. That automatically makes the Minimi imbalanced because it'd practically be superior to the AK. And if Minimi has both bink and movementacc, you can make it 100% accurate with a bit of skill (making use of bink overriding movementacc and tapping). Can understand why the Barrett's nerfed like that due the lack of movementacc and the fact that you want it to kill even when the bullet ricochets, but startup 50? That's ridiculous, you'd be binked like hell even before you fire.

[-Major-]

oh, meant fireinterval +25 and startup +10.

well, I put minimi dmg -1, it should make it need 1 more bullet when there's some range. I think the AK and minimi are about equal, just tha AK fires slower but still quite fast, makes every hs count more than 1 hs from minimi.

so then I guess putting chainsaw reload at 1 would make it good enough.

// Deagles      moveacc -1, dmg +1
// HK MP5       moveacc -1
// Ak           moveacc -2, bink -23
// Steyr        moveacc -2, dmg -1, ammo +5, bink -3
// Spas         moveacc -1, speed -1
// Ruger        moveacc -3, bink +7
// M79          moveacc -3
// Barret       moveacc -7, dmg +100505, fireinterval +25, startup +10
// Minimi       moveacc -3, dmg -1, bink -23 (the dmg -1 might require more reload for steyr and AK (about +15 or so))
// Minigun      Moveacc -1
// Socom        moveacc -1
// Knife        --
// Chainsaw     moveacc -1, fireinterval -1, reload -59 dmg +1000, speed -26
// LAW          moveacc -1, reload -30, startup -2

and yes, you will need to have a break between every 3rd bullet to keep firieng accuratly, if theres a 1 bullet misstake the bullet will miss in long-mid range with AK and minimi. steyr will requier 2 missed bullets to start missing opponent (1 missed bullet can cause a miss or a leg hit).
barrett might need more start up time because of of the 0 moveacc.
if I understand bink correctly steyr should beable to bink ruger, this might overpower steyr, so might have to set ruger bink at 6 or 5 (so that it'll be binked if there's more than 1 auto hitting the rugerer)... maybe even lower, to 2-3.
I think if fireinterval < bink and you hit every bullet, it should bink the target, if bink < fireinterval, it should leave the target unbinked.
I'm not sure about that, so correct me if I'm wrong.

to add about the autos powerfulness, ruger basically beat every auto, so the auto user kinda have to work lots and do whatever he can to warp/eat. which will cause lost bullets (moveacc = 0/1 still has moveacc, there's also animations that causes bullets to go off).
so autos would work well as agile weapons, def weapon and also pinning weapon. while semi autos are high potential aggressive weapons.
barrett gets less random (you can get used to the moveacc, but it isn't always the same),  the extra start up time should make it hard enough, maybe even add another 10-15 ticks.


welllll...... might add 1-2 dmg to ruger, 2dmg to DE, 3-4 speed to spas and 1-2dmg to socom.

[L[0ne]R]

Nah, it's pretty fast already. I know players may crouch at a spot with an auto, then spraying from there as a defense.

Good point, I forgot about that. :S
But quite often the enemy moves so fast that by the time a billet reaches him, he'll already be faraway. I know it's this way with most of the guns right now, but I feel that for minimi it's important that bullets travel at least a little bit faster. Just a little.

A pure support auto is useless - all autos can do both(Steyr being the best for this), so why should I use a weapon that is only useful for one?

Look at it this way: you can be a jack of all trades and do a little bit of everything (which is what most autos are right now), or you can do just one thing, but do it better than anyone else (like barrett or M79, but those are one-shots).

Secondly, have you tried using a Stat Gun? That's exactly how the Minimi would be like if it were taken to that extreme - it'd be so easy to defeat you even though you have superior firepower and that makes using the Minimi pointless. That, or the gun becomes way overpowered to make it useful. That's why that bit of variety wouldn't work.

The big difference between Minimi and Stat Gun would be that Stat Gun is always fixed to the same spot on the map. With Minimi you would still have SOME mobility. Basically you'd be a mobile statgun that could be deployed anywhere and moved back to safety when attacked. That is a huge advantage compared to Stat Gun.

before suggesting absurd things, try to play the game and do the maths behind it.

Now, now, no need to hurt my feelings. Like I said:

I never really got into weapon balancing, so this is just a very rough concept.

In the end gameplay is what matters. And if you get too deep into numbers and formulas - you start forgetting about such thing as "fun". You give a good opinion on mathematical balance, and I'm just expressing the opinion from a point of view of casual gamer who cares about general feel of the game, not some mathematical details. ;| And from that point of view I personally find Minimi plain boring.

[McNugget]

In my opinion, minimi is overpowered a bit.

It's too accurate, not accurate as steyr or hk, but somewhat more accurate than ak. A gun with that much ammo should not be that accurate.

It's range is also pretty wide and the damage that he does is also good.

The only disadvantage is the long reloading time which does not matter so much, a minimi is not reloaded much until the player dies.

My suggestion is, the accuracy could be decreased to minimize the possibility to achieve headshots. If it does underpower the minimi, the recoil time could be increased, the clip size could be also increased (to 75 or 100) and the minimi could be a hell of a spray gun   

Desert Eagle is sometimes overpowered for me too. It's kind of a "close-range-ruger" which is more rapid and has a larger clip size. A slightly damage power decrease could do, but still, desert eagle is a bit tricky to use.

[STM1993]

Look at it this way: you can be a jack of all trades and do a little bit of everything (which is what most autos are right now), or you can do just one thing, but do it better than anyone else (like barrett or M79, but those are one-shots).

The big difference between Minimi and Stat Gun would be that Stat Gun is always fixed to the same spot on the map. With Minimi you would still have SOME mobility. Basically you'd be a mobile statgun that could be deployed anywhere and moved back to safety when attacked. That is a huge advantage compared to Stat Gun.

It's exactly because the Minimi is an auto that makes it unpractical to try to turn the Minimi into an extreme weapon. Autos are on their own, very versatile due to their very high rate of fire, which means they have high bullet push, more leniency for missing and can bink like mad. As I mentioned before, trying to set the Minimi to extremes would either make it greatly overpowered or underpowered. Plus, I reckon it'd be boring to sit/camp somewhere and just spray from that spot, not to mention potentially annoying for gameplay. I doubt a game where players only shoot from afar and stay defensive would be fun. The real fun comes from the charging, not the long-range spraying.

You're quite right about the stat gun thing though, I admit it's not a very good comparison.

If it does underpower the minimi, the recoil time could be increased, the clip size could be also increased (to 75 or 100) and the minimi could be a hell of a spray gun   

They're removing the self-bink from the Minimi, so I doubt that'd be implemented, but I'd agree with adding movementacc to reduce its accuracy during movement.

Clip size increase is completely unnecessary. That suggestion also contradicts your other point that "The only disadvantage is the long reloading time which does not matter so much, a minimi is not reloaded much until the player dies." If there is practically no need to reload the Minimi, why should it get a further ammo boost?

[10th_account]

Self-bink will be completely removed from 1.5.1. And as for moveacc on minimi, I think it should remain relatively low to not force its users to stop and spray when they have the option to shoot while moving. It keeps the game's pace up, the gun balanced in both stationary and mobile combat, and makes it simpler to use so players won't have to learn techniques that are way more complex than they should be for this shitty old game.

[STM1993]

^ We have the worry that the Minimi is practically superior to the AK because it has better bullet speed, ammo, overall rate of damage and now accuracy will be almost the same, so how do you propose to balance that, or if it already is balanced, how is it balanced?

Also, what about guns like the Barrett if you plan to make things easier to use?

[-Major-]

what's the point in removing the skill in the game? increasing the power of lag?

removing selfbink is going the wrong way, you want to eliminate the parts in the wm which you can't control. every single auto user will now stand completely still while firing..........

[10th_account]

^ We have the worry that the Minimi is practically superior to the AK because it has better bullet speed, ammo, overall rate of damage and now accuracy will be almost the same, so how do you propose to balance that, or if it already is balanced, how is it balanced?

As with the previous 20-so versions, the AK will be much more reliable - Better accuracy and faster reload.

Also, what about guns like the Barrett if you plan to make things easier to use?

Fiddling around with fireinterval, reload, startup, moveacc and bink. I wouldn't mind, one day, removing moveacc and bink from the barrett. But currently the balance doesn't permit it.

what's the point in removing the skill in the game? increasing the power of lag?

There's skill and then there's stupid. When people play their samey, rustic colored FPS on their consoles, wouldn't it be awesome if they decreased your gun's accuracy if you weren't constantly tapping the select button? No... it would be mind-bogglingly retarded. Now why should you have to worry about your character's velocity messing up your accuracy in Soldat, a f**king arcade game? If you're aiming at an enemy you should be hitting him.

removing selfbink is going the wrong way, you want to eliminate the parts in the wm which you can't control. every single auto user will now stand completely still while firing..........

I've never had a round suddenly breaking out into a game of Scorched Earth before the introduction of selfbink, and I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

[L[0ne]R]

I doubt The real fun comes from the charging, not the long-range spraying.

Not true. There ARE people who enjoy a more defensive gameplay. Charging gets too fast-paced and intense for some people, and more supportive gameplay lets them relax a bit. Not to mention that support and defense are important elements of teamwork. There were times when even I (hardcore steyr user) got tired from charging and instead I would switch to barrett camp.

You're right, just sitting and spraying several screens ahead IS boring. And like i said before - it's ineffective at best, and a suicide at worst because you're wasting ammo and giving out your position. I'm sure smart players will stay away from such tactic in the first place.



This is how I imagine playing with minimi, and it shouldn't involve off-screen spraying:
You run in a group of 2-3, letting the other player(s) go in front so that you have less chance of getting hit (and by "in front" I mean just in front of your soldier, not somewhere 3 screens ahead).
Eventually you'll reach a point where there's a high chance of encountering an enemy, or you might see that your teammate(s) started firing at someone. At this point your job would be to quickly sit down and keep constant fire at the enemies who are fighting with your teammate(s), and all this would be happening within 1.5 screens at most.

Other autos don't have enough ammo to give supportive fire for a long time, or lack accuracy. DE and Spas are out of question because of low ammo, fire rate and range. M79 is useless against airborne enemies, and Barrett is unreliable because you might miss or get binked.
I see Minimi as a weaker, but more reliable supportive weapon that doesn't have zoom, high mobility or uber damage, but has lots of ammo and decent range to weaken or even kill ground and airborne enemies while they're busy fighting your teammates.


I still can't see why you think it's that hard to make it balanced. :/
There are clear tactical advantages and disadvantages. You should have an advantage while the enemy is far and while your teammates protect you. But you'd be dead meat if you get ambushed by someone with a weapon with high DPS (since you can't really fight back while moving), or sniped from afar.
Here's a good anti-minimi tactic, for example: a nade from over the cover to Minimi user's feet will either kill him or force him to move. Then while he can't aim (and maybe also injured by a grenade), you just finish him off without much effort.

Self-bink will be completely removed from 1.5.1. And as for moveacc on minimi, I think it should remain relatively low to not force its users to stop and spray when they have the option to shoot while moving. It keeps the game's pace up, the gun balanced in both stationary and mobile combat, and makes it simpler to use so players won't have to learn techniques that are way more complex than they should be for this s**tty old game.

I really don't see a point in making yet another generic good-at-everything weapon. Those who don't like the pace or having to stop to shoot - they should pick a different gun. It's simple as that. If Minimi is made to be just another auto - there's no point of having it in the game in the first place. There just wouldn't be much difference if it's not there at all.

[-Major-]

what's the point in removing the skill in the game? increasing the power of lag?

There's skill and then there's stupid. When people play their samey, rustic colored FPS on their consoles, wouldn't it be awesome if they decreased your gun's accuracy if you weren't constantly tapping the select button? No... it would be mind-bogglingly retarded. Now why should you have to worry about your character's velocity messing up your accuracy in Soldat, a f**king arcade game? If you're aiming at an enemy you should be hitting him.

removing selfbink is going the wrong way, you want to eliminate the parts in the wm which you can't control. every single auto user will now stand completely still while firing..........

I've never had a round suddenly breaking out into a game of Scorched Earth before the introduction of selfbink, and I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

you're arguing against yourself... you're saying selfbink ruins the game, and that moveacc should be removed.....

[10th_account]

what's the point in removing the skill in the game? increasing the power of lag?

There's skill and then there's stupid. When people play their samey, rustic colored FPS on their consoles, wouldn't it be awesome if they decreased your gun's accuracy if you weren't constantly tapping the select button? No... it would be mind-bogglingly retarded. Now why should you have to worry about your character's velocity messing up your accuracy in Soldat, a f**king arcade game? If you're aiming at an enemy you should be hitting him.

removing selfbink is going the wrong way, you want to eliminate the parts in the wm which you can't control. every single auto user will now stand completely still while firing..........

I've never had a round suddenly breaking out into a game of Scorched Earth before the introduction of selfbink, and I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

you're arguing against yourself... you're saying selfbink ruins the game, and that moveacc should be removed.....

I don't follow. Yes I consider selfbink and moveacc bad for Soldat.

This is how I imagine playing with minimi, and it shouldn't involve off-screen spraying:
[...]

You're describing scenarios that aren't in the game. There's rarely that much spontaneous teamwork even in Soldat clan wars. There shouldn't be any support weapons that can't be used effectively in open combat. This is a stress-relieving game where you join a server, run forward and you joust against every wave of enemies you see moving towards you. Soldat is a fast paced run-and-gun arcade game, so it can't really cater to fans of simulations that well. You set out to make either Quake or SWAT. Soldat went for Quake. If you want a bit more tactical elements to Soldat, try realistic mode.

Self-bink will be completely removed from 1.5.1. And as for moveacc on minimi, I think it should remain relatively low to not force its users to stop and spray when they have the option to shoot while moving. It keeps the game's pace up, the gun balanced in both stationary and mobile combat, and makes it simpler to use so players won't have to learn techniques that are way more complex than they should be for this s**tty old game.

I really don't see a point in making yet another generic good-at-everything weapon. Those who don't like the pace or having to stop to shoot - they should pick a different gun. It's simple as that. If Minimi is made to be just another auto - there's no point of having it in the game in the first place. There just wouldn't be much difference if it's not there at all.

Minimi is another flavor of auto. I too think there's too many damn autos in this game, but MM didn't want to be more creative than that when he made the game. I wouldn't mind seeing some weapons replaced and having new modifiable attributes.

[L[0ne]R]

You're describing scenarios that aren't in the game. There's rarely that much spontaneous teamwork even in Soldat clan wars.
...
You set out to make either GoldenEye or SWAT 4. Soldat went for GoldenEye. If you want a bit more tactical elements to Soldat, try realistic mode.

I guess the way I described it does make it seem overly tactical, but in reality this doesn't require much teamwork. Even if there's no teamwork at all, it'd still be common for 1-2 players to go via the main route and get caught up in a fight. All you have to do is to carefully follow them and wait for the right moment to open fire.

I often play on pubs and often chose similar tactics - I would just follow random teammates, let them get attacked and only then would attack the enemy myself. Worked great most of the time.

There shouldn't be any support weapons that can't be used effectively in open combat. This is a stress-relieving game where you join a server, run forward and you joust against every wave of enemies you see moving towards you.

But the fact is - there already are weapons that aren't very effective in open combat. It's not the balance that makes even supportive weapons effective in open combat - it's player's skill. A very skilled player can take out 2+ enemies with a barrett or soccom, even though it doesn't change the fact that barrett and soccom are not meant for open combat.

Since Minimi is an auto, I'm sure it won'd be hard to come up with effective offensive tactics, even though again, it would be most effective as support and would require more skill to be used in offense.

To relieve the stress you don't have to run around and shoot everything in your way. You just have to have fun and different players do it differently (I'll say again: from my experiense the only way I could sometimes enjoy the game is to play defensive/supportive, and open combat only felt too fast and frustrating at such times. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sometimes feels that way).
One of the fun things about Soldat is how different each gun is, everyone can find their own style. But there are a few gaps. Fast fire rate and low mobility is just the style that should fill in some of those gaps in Soldat's arsenal.

[10th_account]

You're describing scenarios that aren't in the game. There's rarely that much spontaneous teamwork even in Soldat clan wars.
...
You set out to make either GoldenEye or SWAT 4. Soldat went for GoldenEye. If you want a bit more tactical elements to Soldat, try realistic mode.

I guess the way I described it does make it seem overly tactical, but in reality this doesn't require much teamwork. Even if there's no teamwork at all, it'd still be common for 1-2 players to go via the main route and get caught up in a fight. All you have to do is to carefully follow them and wait for the right moment to open fire.

I often play on pubs and often chose similar tactics - I would just follow random teammates, let them get attacked and only then would attack the enemy myself. Worked great most of the time.

Well the game isn't really "meant" to be played that way. And completely changing a weapon to fit that role would just piss off the vast majority of people. And it'd be a giant middle finger to the clan community which generally wants everything to be as fast paced as it can get. The game must be playable for leagues and ladders.

There shouldn't be any support weapons that can't be used effectively in open combat. This is a stress-relieving game where you join a server, run forward and you joust against every wave of enemies you see moving towards you.

But the fact is - there already are weapons that aren't very effective in open combat. It's not the balance that makes even supportive weapons effective in open combat - it's player's skill. A very skilled player can take out 2+ enemies with a barrett or soccom, even though it doesn't change the fact that barrett and soccom are not meant for open combat.

Since Minimi is an auto, I'm sure it won'd be hard to come up with effective offensive tactics, even though again, it would be most effective as support and would require more skill to be used in open combat.

Barrett and soccom are meant for open combat. Especially soccom since it's basically an alternative, but overall slightly less powerful, form of deagles. Barrett is in this game meant to be fired on the move just like any other weapon. You just can't hold any movement keys nor be moving too fast. So you can fire your one shot and start moving around again. Now with a perpetually inaccurate-while-moving minimi, you'd need to stand still or hover for a long time to fire enough shots to make a kill. Maybe you need to use the entire clip. This just slows the game down and counts by some peoples' books as spraying.

[...] Fast fire rate and low mobility is just the style that should fill in some of those gaps in Soldat's arsenal.

You just described the minigun. =)

[-Major-]

moveacc is the only thing that can't be controled, so removing moveacc instead of selfbink would probably be better. maybe add some damage to the semi autos do cover up for the high accuracy autos...

but I don't see why you would want to keep moveacc and remove selfbink......

[10th_account]

Moveacc can too be controlled. Just slow your character down or release any movement keys. Though selfbink can be controlled even easier by tapping. With some exercise your gun's firerate won't even drop. Now this is abusing the game's mechanics since selfbink wasn't meant to be bypassed this way. So what's the freaking point of selfbink then? Creating an artificial gap between new players and veterans by introducing pointless busywork? Is tapping a button really a skill? There are already hundreds of factors in this game which determines how skilled you are. How well you can tap a button should not be one of them.

Selfbink also unsettles new players. When they're aiming at something they should be hitting it. Why should the game decide to dick around with them?

Keeping moveacc over selfbink is just choosing bleeding hemorrhoids over full blown colon cancer. Preferably there'd be a base deviation attribute available to fiddle around with. Then people could retain maximum accuracy regardless of how fast they were moving.

[STM1993]

I'm still not very convinced about the AK and Minimi issue. Sure, faster reload for AK, but if all autos are eventually going to have no bink and no movementacc, then both of them would be equally accurate with Minimi still having the edge because it is practically better in every other aspect (other than reload). Wouldn't that mean that the Minimi is going to be a super AK that follows the idea of finishing the clip, and then throwing it away rather than reload and grabbing a new gun?

[10th_account]

I don't believe I've ever said that the autos would completely lose their moveacc. Moveacc is currently the most reliable way of making weapons inaccurate, and minimi should be less accurate than AK.

[-Major-]

moveacc changes the accuracy a lot, even while you're almost completely still in the air. even tho this will probably draw a lot more attention to the semi autos, it's still not a great idea.
there's small differences between skilled players and unskilled players too. like, a skilled cs player knows how every weapons recoil goes, it's just unnecessary to create a gap between skilled and new players, why not have the corsair follow the recoil?