Most Unbalanced Weapon (for version 1.5)

[10th_account]

The crosshair already follows the recoil... in realistic mode.

[-Major-]

talking about cs.

[10th_account]

This is Soldat.

[-Major-]

cs = game, soldat = game.

removing things that can be controlled is just utterly stupid. only because you might want to beable to play at high level again trough eating, doesn't mean soldat should go that way.

[10th_account]

At least compare games that are in the same genre. Soldat is an arcade run-and-gun, CS is a tactical shooter that tries to be realistic. It'd make more sense if you compared Soldat to games like Quake and GoldenEye. These games do not have "selfbink" and "moveacc," while Counter-Strike does.

[L[0ne]R]

Barrett and soccom are meant for open combat. Especially soccom since it's basically an alternative, but overall slightly less powerful, form of deagles. Barrett is in this game meant to be fired on the move just like any other weapon. You just can't hold any movement keys nor be moving too fast. So you can fire your one shot and start moving around again.

I guess I underestimated Soccom a bit (forgot that it has very fast reload and pretty high damage), but I still don't agree that barrett is an open-combat weapon. You CAN use it in open combat, but your chances of survival against other guns are somewhat low mainly because of range. Aside from damage, range is Barret's main advantage. You can't use zoom while moving, therefore you lose that range, the element of surprise and chance for first shot. You have to fight in a 1-screen area, where you can easily get binked before you shoot (though with 1.5.1's startup time this might not be true anymore...). While with enough skill you CAN use Batter effectively this way, most of the time it's a reckless tactic that will get you killed.

Now with a perpetually inaccurate-while-moving minimi, you'd need to stand still or hover for a long time to fire enough shots to make a kill. Maybe you need to use the entire clip. This just slows the game down and counts by some peoples' books as spraying.

I think I'm starting to see the problem.. Right now all weapons can be used on the move (open combat is a different thing though), but Minimi becomes the only one that can't be used while moving. Personally, I don't see a problem with having just one weapon that is like that (yay for variety), but I don't know how it'll turn out in reality... Isn't it at least worth a try? :S

[...] Fast fire rate and low mobility is just the style that should fill in some of those gaps in Soldat's arsenal.

You just described the minigun. =)

I know.. but since it's incredibly laggy and is disabled on most servers, it's like it doesn't exist at all. If not minimi - perhaps minigun can be adjusted to work the way I described and hopefully have improved hit reg? I don't know what exactly causes so much eat, but if high fire speed is one of the reasons - perhaps fireinterval could be increased to 4-5? It should still be fast enough, faster than MP5 which has fireinterval of 6.


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Anyway, on the selfbink vs movementacc issue:
While selfbink is flawed, it was still doing some good both balance-wise and fun-wise. I'm gonna miss it.
But other than "fix the bugs" I can't really suggest anything.

[-Major-]

soldat have selfbink and moveacc.... so does CS... removing selfbink makes it a half cs.
so lets say we should remove the speed bonus for buny hopping in quake, since that just requiers experiance. oh, and why not add a global item clock to your side? since item timing just makes it easier for a "pro" than a newb.

[10th_account]

Now with a perpetually inaccurate-while-moving minimi, you'd need to stand still or hover for a long time to fire enough shots to make a kill. Maybe you need to use the entire clip. This just slows the game down and counts by some peoples' books as spraying.

I think I'm starting to see the problem.. Right now all weapons can be used on the move (open combat is a different thing though), but Minimi becomes the only one that can't be used while moving. Personally, I don't see a problem with having just one weapon that is like that (yay for variety), but I don't know how it'll turn out in reality... Isn't it at least worth a try? :S

The thing is... An auto that can't effectively be fired while moving is nigh on impossible to balance. If it's on par with the other weapons at low speeds, it'd be grossly underused since the majority of the fighting takes place at either racing speeds or high altitudes. If it's any better than the other weapons at low speeds it'd be used for defending and spraying, which severely slows the game down. A weapon like that is really bad for Soldat.

soldat have selfbink and moveacc.... so does CS... removing selfbink makes it a half cs.
so lets say we should remove the speed bonus for buny hopping in quake, since that just requiers experiance. oh, and why not add a global item clock to your side? since item timing just makes it easier for a "pro" than a newb.

Not completely sure what point you're trying to get across. But Soldat is very much an arcade game. Selfbink and moveacc are classic features that belong in tactical and realistic shooters.

[-Major-]

ic=34505.msg470918#msg470918 date=1278024863]
soldat have selfbink and moveacc.... so does CS... removing selfbink makes it a half cs.
so lets say we should remove the speed bonus for buny hopping in quake, since that just requiers experiance. oh, and why not add a global item clock to your side? since item timing just makes it easier for a "pro" than a newb.

Not completely sure what point you're trying to get across. But Soldat is very much an arcade game. Selfbink and moveacc are classic features that belong in tactical and realistic shooters.
[/quote]
the point is, many small advantages becomes a big advantage. tapping perfectly with steyr is really hard, every weapon requiers a unique tapping timing. the steyr you have a window where you're supposed to release the fire button of 0.12 seconds, where as AK has a 0.17 seconds. if you put some maths into this, the first 6-8 bullets works quite well for a uniauto user. looking at when the clock turns over (where you would restart in counting seconds, which would be at 1 second). after 8 bullets steyr is at 1.05, 6 bullets of  AK 1.0 and after 7 bullets minimi is 1.05... meaning, at some specific bullet, somebody who's super used to steyr would miss the timing of AK and etc.
assuming a "pro" player would hit every timing window perfectly in battle heat isn't very likely.

anyway, as that explains, if you can switch over somewhat between the weapons, or just uses 1 weapon. you still need to hit those timing windows while being in a fight. it's not like it's something unnecessary element that separates noobs from pros. you could say that to anything (hence the quake and cs metaphores)

the best thing would be to have yet another wm, which would be "pro wm". since the league kids would never go against the default settings (making their own wm).
soldats only goal is to actually have many players and doesn't have a real competitive scene, so it's better to have a noob friendly wm...

however... you're making even less sence... since soldat is an arcade game (like quake?). where you have to concentrate on bullet trajectories and movement predictions instead of recoil and moveacc, weapon inaccuracy should be removed. but removing selfbink removes the possibility to move and shoot with an auto. which makes it a "realistic tactical" shooter, which doesn't need skill, only luck in the moveacc randomness.

[10th_account]

anyway, as that explains, if you can switch over somewhat between the weapons, or just uses 1 weapon. you still need to hit those timing windows while being in a fight. it's not like it's something unnecessary element that separates noobs from pros. you could say that to anything (hence the quake and cs metaphores)

It IS an unnecessary element that is just a form of busywork for the experts and nuisance for the newbies. They just want to fire their weapon where they're aiming. They shouldn't have to keep solving an eternal timing-puzzle for it.

the best thing would be to have yet another wm, which would be "pro wm". since the league kids would never go against the default settings (making their own wm).
soldats only goal is to actually have many players and doesn't have a real competitive scene, so it's better to have a noob friendly wm...

The game does not need any more segregation between pubbers and clanners. And the WM greatly respects leagues and ladders. It's those events that keep the game alive and kicking.

however... you're making even less sence... since soldat is an arcade game (like quake?). where you have to concentrate on bullet trajectories and movement predictions instead of recoil and moveacc, weapon inaccuracy should be removed. but removing selfbink removes the possibility to move and shoot with an auto. which makes it a "realistic tactical" shooter, which doesn't need skill, only luck in the moveacc randomness.

In 1.5.1, Minimi is the only auto with noticeable moveacc. It's been set low enough to not force one to slow down. It's still pretty accurate.

[-Major-]

anyway, as that explains, if you can switch over somewhat between the weapons, or just uses 1 weapon. you still need to hit those timing windows while being in a fight. it's not like it's something unnecessary element that separates noobs from pros. you could say that to anything (hence the quake and cs metaphores)

It IS an unnecessary element that is just a form of busywork for the experts and nuisance for the newbies. They just want to fire their weapon where they're aiming. They shouldn't have to keep solving an eternal timing-puzzle for it.

it is NOT an unnecessary element. why the hell do you have to bother with that timing nuisance with semi autos? (since you have to click between every bullet, you can't just hold (you can let go and start holding again before a fireinterval is over))
the only purpose it servers is the "semi auto" word.
and what the heck, why not add aimbots as we move along, since it's so much about tactic and movements anyway, having to aim is just busywork for the experts, everyone got about the same aim anyway. - just because it's "busywork" doesn't mean it's an important factor in the game. same goes with almost every aspect, like the radar, why won't it show the enemies too? it's just a nuisance to have to predict where they are.
the more hard things and small details makes the game better for "pro's". - more elements to keep track of makes it a more intense and fun game.

however... you're making even less sence... since soldat is an arcade game (like quake?). where you have to concentrate on bullet trajectories and movement predictions instead of recoil and moveacc, weapon inaccuracy should be removed. but removing selfbink removes the possibility to move and shoot with an auto. which makes it a "realistic tactical" shooter, which doesn't need skill, only luck in the moveacc randomness.

In 1.5.1, Minimi is the only auto with noticeable moveacc. It's been set low enough to not force one to slow down. It's still pretty accurate.

well.... I rather add something to make autos harder to use, since they are soooooo overused. even tho removing moveacc and adding a lot more selfbink would probably make them even stronger, debuffs in damage would be needed.

[Veritas]

skoskav I thought you knew better than to take banana-san's opinions seriously

[-Major-]

skoskav I thought you knew better than to take banana-san's opinions seriously

I thought noobs had no voice.

[10th_account]

skoskav I thought you knew better than to take banana-san's opinions seriously

Major is banana-san? Eeeew! That's revolting.

[STM1993]

Alright, no further questions on the current beta balance.

What do you think about aim lag then?

[10th_account]

I dislike it for about the same reason as moveacc. It slows you down and is a feature that belongs in simulators. Perhaps it could have replaced startup and moveacc on Barrett, but it wasn't very promising in some play tests.

[Squakingcow]

While banana-san is a retard, removing selfbink and keeping moveacc IS a bad move as it will vastly reduce the effectiveness of autos whilst rushing.

It would also make the game more luck dependant than it already is, since no matter how skilled you are your shots will still deviate from the target when you are moving, and it will be down to pure luck or not if more of your bullets decide to go where you are aiming then than your opponent.

Still, this pales into insignificance in the light of the impossibly retarded introduction of aim lag. I mean while we are at it why don't we bastardise all the old maps (OH WAIT LOL).

Ok, I'm done.

[tehsnipah]

Now that I think about it, AUG is a great weapon. Even with -5 ammo, the damage is great, but do you guys think that the gun will be overpowered if the gun gets a little decreased bink/recoil?

[-Major-]

Now that I think about it, AUG is a great weapon. Even with -5 ammo, the damage is great, but do you guys think that the gun will be overpowered if the gun gets a little decreased bink/recoil?

it was _ALOT_ more accurate in 1.4.2 than in 1.5. which was atleast my reason to leave it. minimi is way more accurate than steyr in 1.5.

[draco256]

all who say spas in underpower or is difficult to use, obbiusly they are who use spas lol

they dont want a balance weapons they want have the best weapon