Author Topic: INF_Abel remake  (Read 11942 times)

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Offline L[0ne]R

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INF_Abel remake
« on: December 09, 2009, 06:16:42 pm »
----------- Description:
A remake of a default INF map Abel. The original map had some spots that are rarely used as well as some balance issues (few good defense spots for Reds), low route was easy for Blues to camp in. I made some changes to hopefully rebalance the map in Red team's favor a bit, but how good those changes actually are - only testing will show.

Suggestions, bug reports or any other kind of feedback is appreciated.


----------- Changes:
v1.3
- Repositioned Red roof spawns
- Changed the appearance of "WTF are those mountains?" to make them look less random.
- Other minor changes.

v1.2
- Removed two useless Blue spawns.
- Rebalanced bonus kit spawns.
- Added rambo bow and neutral player spawns.
- Stretched textures on some polygons.
- Fixed polybugs.
- Other minor changes.

v1.1
- Moved Blue anti-spawnkill wall, improved visual apparance of both walls.
- Changed the way anti-spawnkill walls work.
- Added an invisible ceiling to prevent Flagger and Blues getting all the way to the roof.
- Other minor tweaks and bugfixes.
*Included a v1.5-compatible version of the map.

v1.01
- Moved one of the sandbags (on the right side of blue base, near fenses) to the right and made it bigger.
Should provide a little more cover for reds.

v1.0
- Completely redone polygon shading.
- More sceneries.
- Numerous polybugs fixed.

- Added watch tower on the hill.
- Added a 2nd spawn on roof.
- Added spawnkill-proof polygons to each base.
- Top-right side of the blue base is now accessible from the main route instead of blue spawn.
- Repositioned some bonuses, kits and the statgun.
- Other minor polygon tweaks for (hopefully) improved gameplay and balance.

----------- Previews:

Original:


Remake:

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 04:19:57 pm by L[0ne]R »


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maps - remakes: inf_Warehouse ; inf_Fortress ; inf_(Sun)Rise ; inf_Outpost ; inf_Abel ; inf_Moonshine

Offline jerich

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 06:20:08 pm »
My opinion:
1. The background at the base is not needed and just doesnt seem to go with this theme anyway.
2. When I played, people have always abused M79 boosting to the roof, if there isn't an invisible roof, make some sort of way to prevent this abuse.
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 06:30:00 pm »
My opinion:
1. The background at the base is not needed and just doesnt seem to go with this theme anyway.
Awwwww c'moooon. It's a cave. :<
Personally, I just hate it when there is no variation between "indoor" and "outdoor" atmosphere. It also helps to separate safe spawn areas from battle areas. Maybe you're just not used to that. :/

2. When I played, people have always abused M79 boosting to the roof, if there isn't an invisible roof, make some sort of way to prevent this abuse.
You mean boosting to the roof, or boosting OFF the roof to safely escape with black flag?
Either way, I haven't noticed much of that going on and I think doing so is actually a bad idea, that's why:
This map has a lot of open space, it's made for long-ranged weapons. So if you use M79 - you're an easy victim.
Also, it's a lot faster to just prone-jet down the hill instead of wasting time to get on the roof and lose time and health from boosting. This way in the end you just put yourself through too much risk.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:34:52 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline As de Espada

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 08:36:44 pm »
step1: score until you have more points
step2: grab the flag again
step3: go up there and you're god
step4: win when the time is out
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 09:49:21 pm »
step1: score until you have more points
step2: grab the flag again
step3: go up there and you're god
step4: win when the time is out
Eh..
First, there are only 2 spawns up there, so you won't get any backup.
Second - round limit is usually long (20 minutes on Grayevard INF, I think). Not much fun sitting with flag and waiting for the round to finish.. I never seen anyone do something like that.


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Offline STM1993

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 10:03:34 pm »
Where exactly are the anti-spawnkill polys?

If they are the red polys as shown in one of the previews (http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6673/preview2o.jpg), then I have to say they are both very flawed.

Other than that, the new changes look good.

Eh..
First, there are only 2 spawns up there, so you won't get any backup.
Second - round limit is usually long (20 minutes on Grayevard INF, I think). Not much fun sitting with flag and waiting for the round to finish.. I never seen anyone do something like that.
I've seen it before, though rather rare.

Anyway, I suggest that roof should not allow anyone to go off-map. ie: you can't go past that hill even if you are a professional m79 booster.

I don't really like the idea of the Alpha players spawning on land there, I prefer it in mid-air.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 10:09:06 pm by STM1993 »

Offline Suowarrior

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 02:59:24 am »
In blank scenery is some sort of bug, two edges that are connected in "scenery point" (I mean the points then you got points on in polyworks) causes this.

Also the polygon types aren't written in stone, meaning that they might have some changes still, so it's better if you don't use only bravo go through polys. Especially when it has no real meaning there (on route leading to bravo spawns).

Offline numgun

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 03:40:28 am »
I never seen anyone do something like that.

I did this once on inf_Moonshine. There was this bug that allowed a player to get under the house, inside a non-colliding polygon, by using an m79 boost downwards into the floor at the left side entry to the house.

It was fun for that one time, I rushed into the base, grabbed the flag and then pulled out my m79 and blew my self inside the polygon under the house. I sat there the entire match with all the other players going "WTF FLAG???".

It was possible to kill me with explosives while I was hiding down there, but since I stayed quiet the whole time, no one got any ideas on doing that.

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 06:40:25 am »
You always put awfully alot extra polygons below or around the map, why?

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 04:01:05 pm »
Where exactly are the anti-spawnkill polys?

If they are the red polys as shown in one of the previews (http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6673/preview2o.jpg), then I have to say they are both very flawed.
They're polygons that collide only with players of certain teams (if player has a flag - he will collide with those too, no matter what team he is on). I placed red-players-collide wall in blue base and blue-players-collide on red base.
I know there isn't much spawnkilling going on in blue base, but I thought even for them some anti-spawnkill measures won't hurt. The red stuff is actually a row of colliders to prevent nades and bullets from going through.
Why do you think they're flawed?

Eh..
First, there are only 2 spawns up there, so you won't get any backup.
Second - round limit is usually long (20 minutes on Grayevard INF, I think). Not much fun sitting with flag and waiting for the round to finish.. I never seen anyone do something like that.
I've seen it before, though rather rare.

Anyway, I suggest that roof should not allow anyone to go off-map. ie: you can't go past that hill even if you are a professional m79 booster.

I don't really like the idea of the Alpha players spawning on land there, I prefer it in mid-air.
I'm not a fan of invisible walls, so I try to avoid them. Instead what I did there is I set roof polygons to "hurt". This way it doesn't limit players' freedom, but still prevents them from off-mapping.

What I personally don't like about spawning in the air is the lack of control. I don't see much of a reason why reds should spawn in the air. :S

In blank scenery is some sort of bug, two edges that are connected in "scenery point" (I mean the points then you got points on in polyworks) causes this.
Is it just the blank.bmp that does it? I used them the same way in my Outpost rework, did the same problem (probably at new mini-route for reds) occur there too?
I'll see what I can do about this, but any info on how this could be fixed will be helpful.

Also the polygon types aren't written in stone, meaning that they might have some changes still, so it's better if you don't use only bravo go through polys. Especially when it has no real meaning there (on route leading to bravo spawns).
Well, they seem to be working fine so far. But either way, once final version will be near final release, I'll have to go through all my remakes and make any necessary fixes. If there will be changes to polytypes - I'll fix them as well.

I never seen anyone do something like that.

I did this once on inf_Moonshine. There was this bug that allowed a player to get under the house, inside a non-colliding polygon, by using an m79 boost downwards into the floor at the left side entry to the house.

It was fun for that one time, I rushed into the base, grabbed the flag and then pulled out my m79 and blew my self inside the polygon under the house. I sat there the entire match with all the other players going "WTF FLAG???".

It was possible to kill me with explosives while I was hiding down there, but since I stayed quiet the whole time, no one got any ideas on doing that.
Oh yeah, and people still do that quite often. Fun fun. :D
But like you said - flagger can still be killed with explosives. And because neither blues nor reds get the points - it's just a harmless joke, not a balance issue.
But I do plan to fix that once I get to remaking moonshine.

You always put awfully a lot extra polygons below or around the map, why?
So that the ground looks like solid surface, not a thin bridge hanging in the middle of nowhere. I think it really ruins the atmosphere and realism when it looks like a bunch of random polygons floating in the air (unless the idea of the map really IS something like a flying island).





---------------

Would it be a good idea to set roof to "hurt-flaggers" type of polygon?
I'm not really a fan of that idea, as I don't find it much of an issue if flagger hides there (he can still be easily spotted and killed), but maybe it's because I never experienced those problems myself. On the other hand, what if flagger really has no choice  but to escape to roof? It wouldn't be fair to hurt flagger this way if he intends to play normally.
I'd like to hear your opinions on that solution.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 04:08:26 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline As de Espada

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2009, 04:22:37 pm »
In blank scenery is some sort of bug, two edges that are connected in "scenery point" (I mean the points then you got points on in polyworks) causes this.
Is it just the blank.bmp that does it? I used them the same way in my Outpost rework, did the same problem (probably at new mini-route for reds) occur there too?
I'll see what I can do about this, but any info on how this could be fixed will be helpful.
That border is showed only in two sides of the scenery, let's say it's the right and the bottom. To fix that, all you have to do is to change scenery's order (using home or end, etc) and put the un-bugging scenery side in front of the bugging one.
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Offline STM1993

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 05:19:25 pm »
They're polygons that collide only with players of certain teams (if player has a flag - he will collide with those too, no matter what team he is on). I placed red-players-collide wall in blue base and blue-players-collide on red base.
I know there isn't much spawnkilling going on in blue base, but I thought even for them some anti-spawnkill measures won't hurt. The red stuff is actually a row of colliders to prevent nades and bullets from going through.
Why do you think they're flawed?
It's not about lack of [whatever], it's about complete prevention of [whatever].

For blue base, the location of the anti-spawn poly should be put at the hole where blue drops down from. I know, not much spawnkilling, but it is still possible for some idiot M79er to fly up there and start spamming nades and M79s before Blue can even get out. The lower spawnpoints are redundant, especially since they don't lead to the top right of the blue base anymore. Not to mention there is already a vest spawn on the way out.

I looked at the Red base's spawns again, I take back what I said about the anti-spawnkill polys for red. Didn't realize there are some red spawns at the top part of the red base.

Flag hurt polys at the top are okay. It's not like the flagger won't know how to stay off the ground, and he has a height advantage over anyone attempting to climb up. Not to mention teammates can spawn there.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 05:24:39 pm by STM1993 »

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 01:31:24 am »
That border is showed only in two sides of the scenery, let's say it's the right and the bottom. To fix that, all you have to do is to change scenery's order (using home or end, etc) and put the un-bugging scenery side in front of the bugging one.
Interesting. Thanks a lot for the tip. I already fixed it in a bit different way, but at least now I know what's causing this bug.

It's not about lack of [whatever], it's about complete prevention of [whatever].

For blue base, the location of the anti-spawn poly should be put at the hole where blue drops down from. I know, not much spawnkilling, but it is still possible for some idiot M79er to fly up there and start spamming nades and M79s before Blue can even get out.
I thought that it'd be a good opportunity for Reds to camp there and hold-off blues while one of the reds safely escapes with flag, that's why I decided to leave some of that area available.
But I suppose it won't be used as much as it will be abused.

The lower spawnpoints are redundant, especially since they don't lead to the top right of the blue base anymore. Not to mention there is already a vest spawn on the way out.
Well, they won't hurt, will they? That small room kinda makes the spawn area a little less boring.
And yes, there are quite a few vest spawns around there, but that's how it was in the original, so I kept it that way.

Flag hurt polys at the top are okay. It's not like the flagger won't know how to stay off the ground, and he has a height advantage over anyone attempting to climb up. Not to mention teammates can spawn there.
Well, I can leave the right side normal, but the roof itself will hurt flaggers. How does that sound?


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Offline smiluu

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 07:21:06 am »
Well, I can leave the right side normal, but the roof itself will hurt flaggers. How does that sound?
Flag can be thrown aside, back to the sniping seat, repick flag when it starts flashing ~ repeat.
Thats what it sounds.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel (remake)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 03:17:58 pm »
Well, I can leave the right side normal, but the roof itself will hurt flaggers. How does that sound?
Flag can be thrown aside, back to the sniping seat, repick flag when it starts flashing ~ repeat.
Thats what it sounds.
Didn't think of that. You people sure know how to screw with the enemy. ;O
Anyway, I won't make whole of blue base's right part to hurt flaggers. I don't want to give players an unnecessary disadvantage just to prevent such a rare and IMO ineffective tactic.

Most I will do is make just the roof to hurt flaggers. If someone decides to keep flag and not cap - it's still possible to kill flagger (he's probably not very skilled if he resorts to such tactic in the first place), and if not- try votekick. "Not capping" is a good enough of a reason.

edit: hey I know. I'll add an invisible wall that is only-flagger-collides blues and flaggers collide. Only-flaggers-collide currently doesn't work, and I thought that roof could use some anti-spawnkill protection as well.

From: December 11, 2009, 07:15:59 pm
Updated to 1.1
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 07:15:59 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: INF_Abel remake
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2009, 06:39:00 pm »
Updated to v1.2


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Offline Izzy Rose (PL)

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Re: INF_Abel remake
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 08:54:31 am »
Really sorry for reheating the topic, but I think that this remake is really good and it's still not as a default version of Abel.
However to make it better and maybe acceptable to join the pantheon of default maps, I'd suggest some changes.

In attachment.

I think that changes may make the gameplay more dynamic - not to much people use Bravo's balcony because it's too time wasting to get back on the "main hall". In the remake getting to it is complicated too, because you have to go up with jets.

step1: score until you have more points
step2: grab the flag again
step3: go up there and you're god
step4: win when the time is out
The roof corridor would prevent this problem.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:57:38 am by Izzy Rose (PL) »
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