Author Topic: swimming  (Read 6550 times)

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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: swimming
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 05:17:59 pm »
I don´t like it anyway. Don´t blame me for having an other opinion than you.
The problem is - there wasn't that much of an opinion. Your opinion sums up to something like "I don't like it", which is not exactly helpful. This is a discussion for a new feature, so personal taste doesn't really count in this case. What matters is if it'll improve the game for all players in general.
Your only argument so far was "it'll take away Soldat's simplicity", but there already are multiple counter-arguments to that. It'll take more than "I don't like it" to prove your point. Otherwise it'll just be ignored.

I'll quote myself:
Let's not focus on what we like or don't, and think of what is actually good for the game.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 05:22:23 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline tehsnipah

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Re: swimming
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2010, 09:50:53 pm »
*sigh* Let's not turn this into Counter Strike in 2D
"Prudence is good when pulling the trigger on a heavy firearm. It's all or nothing. So is life, wouldn't you say?"

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: swimming
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 09:53:47 pm »
*sigh* Let's not turn this into Counter Strike in 2D
Isn't it already? ;O
Counter Strike is one of the games Soldat is often compared to.

And what does water have to do with CS anyway? As far as I remember - CS didn't have any maps that had water (not default ones at least).


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Offline tehsnipah

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Re: swimming
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2010, 09:55:48 pm »
Obviously, but I'm saying, let's not push it further that line.

And are you kidding?! Surf maps frequently have water throughout the map to land without damage. Maybe not those ordinary modes, but yes, water is still used in CS.
"Prudence is good when pulling the trigger on a heavy firearm. It's all or nothing. So is life, wouldn't you say?"

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: swimming
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2010, 10:04:56 pm »
Obviously, but I'm saying, let's not push it further that line.

And are you kidding?! Surf maps frequently have water throughout the map to land without damage. Maybe not those ordinary modes, but yes, water is still used in CS.
That's a mod though. In normal mode water doesn't play that much of a role. And I'd expect the same to happen in Soldat - water would be another nice feature for some maps and mods, but it won't be a major part of the normal gameplay.

What "line" are you talking about? What exactly do you think will hurt Soldat and what will it become?
I want to understand how your logic works and why do you come to a conclusion that water will ruin Soldat. So far I only see you imagining things and no facts. :/
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 10:12:07 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline tehsnipah

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Re: swimming
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2010, 11:14:08 pm »
This "line" I am staying: players are frequently mistaking this game with Counter Strike, making quite redundant/unnecessary suggestions. I think water won't work well in Soldat, because now it needs to have a little movement configuration. Not only that, to make it realistic just like in real life, players will be slowed down.

Sure, in public shooter, water won't be that very effective, but give me an idea or two about what Soldat can use with water.
"Prudence is good when pulling the trigger on a heavy firearm. It's all or nothing. So is life, wouldn't you say?"

Offline smiluu

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Re: swimming
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2010, 03:30:46 am »
You keep comparing Soldat and CS like some witsless idiot. Only way Soldat resemples CS is by guns and gun sounds that
we have seen nearly in every game in 2009-10 mainstream production. What I mean ofcourse is that CS isnt only or first game
that has guns and water. So far each game I know that has water has not disappointed me. Just like Darkcrusade in page one,
youre afraid of some weird configurations and features that aren't even necessary to be afraid of.

Idea 1:
Um.. Tens of thousands of new gameplay/layout possibilities?
Idea 2:
Water would be useful in thöörms of balancing routes, if you want some of them to slow people down.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:35:47 am by smiluu »

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Re: swimming
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2010, 05:55:19 am »
Idea 2 sounds useless if you don´t create maps without jet fuel since people would just fly over it unless the whole route is underwater. Besides that you´d need many different water scenery objects for different maps or it just gets plain boring due to never changing scenery.

Sure it would offer TW new options, why not, but no default CTF maps with water then, please.


Water would be useful in thöörms of balancing routes, if you want some of them to slow people down.

You can already balance routes in an easy way that was used on maps like ctf_Run, right?

Offline smiluu

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Re: swimming
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2010, 09:45:44 am »
I apologize for posting such an useless post previously, but I'm afraid I have to do that again, because
I feel responsible to correct myself to our friend Darkcrusade who has his bad habit of being able to
understand only one thing at a time.


You can already balance routes in an easy way that was used on maps like ctf_Run, right?
Water would be useful in thöörms of balancing routes, if you want some of them to slow people down.

And with this I meant if theres longer and shorter routes. Underwater sewerlike pipe would be a splendid choise
for the shorter route if you want them to be balanced.

Instead of getting inspired yourself by this idea you keep doubting mine and (again) being afraid a no matter things such as this
will affect your default maps gameplay. I understand youre influenced by that trend of mauling default maps with everything
possible new, but that believe or not is a taboo for me too. I wonder if you whined the same whining when you heard explosive
polygons are gonna be added to soldat. Better pucker up your whip.. Because somebodys about to ruin our precious
defaults with explosives.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: swimming
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2010, 11:31:42 am »
Heck, I'm all for variation, but I just don't see any practical uses for this, except as mentioned in TW maps.
b&

Offline smiluu

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Re: swimming
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2010, 11:49:54 am »
Well like I said, all basic things it can do is slow people down. Ofcourse people might be flying over it, or not if you have ran out of
jet by attemping some air-lunatism above the puddle. Medkits, nades and bonuses might exist in the bottom of a puddle which makes
picking them slow you down. Even flags might find a good spot in the water. All this can be used in advantage in various ways if you
just use your slight imagination a bit.

DarkCrusade

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Re: swimming
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2010, 12:06:15 pm »
Look, is it only me with this in your eyes so derisory opinion? I don´t think so. I already said that it would be okay for gamemodes like TW but I said I am concerned about default CTF maps. That´s all. Besides that I think that any underwater part with those water polygons would ruin the game completly if the player faces and enemy and both are not able to hit the other player since the water just stops the bullets like it´s in reality (and in reality guns don´t work underwater). Will there be an air display, too? I can imagine FCs camp underwater just to survive. If an air display is going to be added all interfaces created till that unlucky day will be looking ugly as fuck.

Explosive polygons are nothing that new since they instantly kill you, right? Like deadly and bloody deadly polygons. That´s not that kind of gamebreaking.


Offline demoniac93

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Re: swimming
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2010, 12:53:20 pm »
You forget that both the AK and Glock can fire under water, and let's not start with spear guns...
And what about the APS?
b&

Offline Horve

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Re: swimming
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2010, 01:11:07 pm »
if it's possible to simulate water, one could also simulate quicksand and mud with the same poly type.
Could also be used in realistic mode for fall damage reduction.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 01:46:17 pm by Horve »

Offline smiluu

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Re: swimming
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2010, 01:27:02 pm »
Look, is it only me with this in your eyes so derisory opinion? I don´t think so. I already said that it would be okay for gamemodes like TW but I said I am concerned about default CTF maps. That´s all. Besides that I think that any underwater part with those water polygons would ruin the game completly if the player faces and enemy and both are not able to hit the other player since the water just stops the bullets like it´s in reality (and in reality guns don´t work underwater). Will there be an air display, too? I can imagine FCs camp underwater just to survive. If an air display is going to be added all interfaces created till that unlucky day will be looking ugly as f**k.
I think somebody mentioned already or sort of implied, but your comments are something that cannot be replied without derision.
Who said anything about mimicking realism? Guns would obviously work underwater unless we've all suddenly decided to become
stupid as f**k. Air bar and lack of air underwater was propably best suggestion I've heard from you ever (even tho it would be
obvious and thus unnecessary to mention). Once again youre concerned about default maps as if somebodys gonna insert diarhea
in the format of water youre so afraid of there right on the spot it gets featured. Would be possible there might emerge maps into
defaults list with the new water element used, but default maps with such a fine layout as they already have - wont change other
than visually or duz-ually if we have bad luck.

if it's possible to simulate water, one could also simulate quicksand and mud with the same poly type.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: swimming
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2010, 01:52:07 pm »
Look, is it only me with this in your eyes so derisory opinion? I don´t think so. I already said that it would be okay for gamemodes like TW but I said I am concerned about default CTF maps. That´s all. Besides that I think that any underwater part with those water polygons would ruin the game completly if the player faces and enemy and both are not able to hit the other player since the water just stops the bullets like it´s in reality (and in reality guns don´t work underwater). Will there be an air display, too? I can imagine FCs camp underwater just to survive. If an air display is going to be added all interfaces created till that unlucky day will be looking ugly as f**k.

Explosive polygons are nothing that new since they instantly kill you, right? Like deadly and bloody deadly polygons. That´s not that kind of gamebreaking.


Air bar does not have to be part of interface. Soldat can already display text on screen, so amount of air could simply be a blue bold counter at the top. Alternatively, a jet bar can be used instead, since it's blue and jets could be made not working underwater. Or maybe even no counter at all, like in Quake that I mentioned a thousand times already.
IMHO lack of counter actually makes it more interesting when you don't know how much air you have left and if you will make it out of water in time.

Either way, this is a minor detail and should not decide if water gets added or not.



Default CTF maps:
If they're, playable, fun and well-balanced - they deserve to be in defaults whether there is water or not.

Shooting in water:
Bullets do go through water, you know. In Soldat they can be made going a little slower than in open air. And yes, in real life weapons don't work underwater. But this is a game, and even in very realistic games some realism is sacrificed for the sake of fun. I don't see a problem if soldiers will be able to freely shoot underwater.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 01:55:58 pm by L[0ne]R »


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DarkCrusade

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Re: swimming
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2010, 02:23:18 pm »
I get more and more convinced that water polygons could be fun. Lets develop this until it gets more interesting. Here are some points that I am most concerned about:

Campers:
Barretards tend to camp somewhere where they are both safe and able to take down enemies with ease. If there is a route with water campers won´t be able to take down enemies with single shots, though they are not killable that easy.

Grenades:
What will happen with them? If they get slowed down they will rather hurt the original owner than the target.

Knife:
Useless?



Offline demoniac93

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Re: swimming
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2010, 03:15:17 pm »
I get more and more convinced that water polygons could be fun. Lets develop this until it gets more interesting. Here are some points that I am most concerned about:

Campers:
Barretards tend to camp somewhere where they are both safe and able to take down enemies with ease. If there is a route with water campers won´t be able to take down enemies with single shots, though they are not killable that easy.

Grenades:
What will happen with them? If they get slowed down they will rather hurt the original owner than the target.

Knife:
Useless?

Actually, the Barrett is one of the weapons I know for sure don't fire under water without modification.
I already said, only the AK could apply in soldat as to shooting underwater, that, and maybe add a  spear gun, or spear gun bonus.

Grenades might be made to travel only a few feet under water, but they will explode normally AFAIK, in real life.

As to the knife, when you're under water, CQC is a life saver.
 
b&

Offline Mr. America

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Re: swimming
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2010, 03:20:59 pm »
Another thing. If, IF, the water doesn't fall according to physics, one could make awesome surreal waterexperiments like floating waterbubbles troughout the map (flying trough will slow you down, possible to jump (?) off them, etc...) and in case that a current/stream/flow could be added (only if it doesn't follow physics to start with) it would add some neat transporting options.

No, don't slow down bullets, to fight camping it would make more sense for ppl to suffocate underwater (= no camping).

All in all I'm sooooooo interested in water enabled in Soldat. And those other polygon types suggested from L[0ne]r.

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Re: swimming
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2010, 04:32:10 pm »
Actually, the Barrett is one of the weapons I know for sure don't fire under water without modification.
I already said, only the AK could apply in soldat as to shooting underwater, that, and maybe add a  spear gun, or spear gun bonus.

Grenades might be made to travel only a few feet under water, but they will explode normally AFAIK, in real life.

As to the knife, when you're under water, CQC is a life saver.
 

Lets get back from reality. Neither CS really simluates reality nor Soldat and it´s ridiculous that any gun won´t fire underwater other than the AK and a spear gun sounds too disgressive to be frank. If water, then with every gun being able to fire underwater. For me the question is what will happen if I fire it.

@Mr. America:
Bubbles sound like Sonic the Hedgehog, in a 2D flashgame I played once I was supposed to run through an underwater temple and I was only able to get some fresh air from bubbles that were floating through the temple. No, Soldats physics don´t allow that stuff.