Author Topic: Open Sourcing Soldat  (Read 9214 times)

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Offline Veritas

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Open Sourcing Soldat
« on: March 28, 2010, 08:07:50 am »
Let's talk about open sourcing Soldat. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it would make Soldat's source code freely available to modify by the public. First, let's deal with some of the concerns people usually have with this.

zOMG HACKING EVERYWHERE
It is true that exposing Soldat's code makes it easier for hackers to find and exploit the weaknesses within. However this works both ways, as it allows more people to find those exploits and patch them. Linux is a prime example of how open source breeds more security than holes.

There will then be a billion slightly different Soldats, right??
Not so. There will still be a main "Soldat," controlled (presumably) by nC and friends. Forking projects into separate ones is frowned upon in the open source community unless the project is no longer being maintained or some other pressing reason.

Won't this mean no registration, and therefore no money for MM?
I think this is the largest concern for MM. Based on his blog, he's coding LD fulltime, so any bit of income helps. But Soldat's registration is already easy to crack, and we go back to the point on hacking: allowing more coders to look at the code will improve the security of the registration process. It's also worth noting that what happens to $60 games doesn't apply here - you already get what you need to enjoy the game for free.

People will continue to register Soldat because they love the game, and more people will come to Soldat if the game improves. Open sourcing Soldat will help to do this by truly adding community involvement to the development process, and dramatically speeding up development time.

Please bring up any concerns you have about this, I'll do my best to address them.
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Offline enchant

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2010, 08:28:19 am »
IT'S JUST YOUR DESIRE.

there are wheels within wheels. if make soldat open source, the more, the better hacks can make.

Offline jrgp

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2010, 08:43:58 am »
It's already been said that this won't happen anytime within the near future. However, an open source clone is being developed:
http://opensoldat.u13.net

if make soldat open source, the more, the better hacks can make.
This isn't how open source works. Look at quake3. Multiplayer, open source. No hacks. Keeping something secret isn't necessary when it's written well enough.
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Offline Veritas

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 08:56:42 am »
It's already been said that this won't happen anytime within the near future.
Could you link me? I'd like to know the justification for this.
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Offline Vv00t-SN

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 02:31:12 pm »
egh, damn you Waco. Your post on sctfl.net made me think this was actually being considered by the powers that be.... no such luck I spose... $_$ / €_€

either this kid has a lightbulb up his butt, or his colon has a great idea.
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Offline biohazard

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 08:03:21 pm »
various MM's interview (very old)

What are your expectations concerning Soldat for the next years?
I would like people to play it from time to time. If there would be at least a couple of servers in 10 years I will be happy. I hope to make Soldat open source sooner or later and I think it will give the game a whole new life.

Golum also wants to know, a bit merged with this question, will you ever let soldat be open source?
Well i definetely have to end this game some time and then is when it's going open source, and open source will make a whole new start for soldat because people could remake it and it would be fun for me because i would be free.
I don't know when it is going to happen, another 2 or 3 or 4 years i don't know.
do you have any other plans for soldat?
Besides open source i don't know, and i won't add vehicles.

[Witcher] Another question from KeFear, do you plan to make soldat fully customable in the near future? People mean soldats main interface and will you add a mod selector in the game?
[MM] With every version I try to do more and more stuff that are customisable. I think the same will happen in next versions until soldat becomes open source and you can change everything. That will be the final thing.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 12:24:19 am by biohazard »

Offline Veritas

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 08:51:36 pm »
Thanks biohazard!

His statements are a little confusing. I'm not sure if he realizes that the upstream people - those who control what changes are applied to the main Soldat version - still retain much of the control over the program. It seems he thinks open sourcing is sort of "setting it free," rather than creating a new development process.

egh, damn you Waco. Your post on sctfl.net made me think this was actually being considered by the powers that be.... no such luck I spose... $_$ / €_€
Sorry, I just wanted more people to discuss it ):
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Offline Shinobars

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 01:26:14 am »
I f12 this notion. Sadly, other than that, I have no relevant input.

Offline croat1gamer

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2010, 04:56:19 pm »
Personally i think that MM's idea was to fix the code to make it somewhat accessible to the programers and just then open source it as the current state is full of bugs and just a few people would develop it as it is.

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« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 04:57:56 pm by croat1gamer »
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 04:58:05 pm »
It seems he thinks open sourcing is sort of "setting it free," rather than creating a new development process.
That's exactly the impression I got too.
And to me, this is not the right way to go. It's like saying that open-source will surely kill Soldat, so it's best to leave it till Soldat is already dead. That's not necessarily true. There are many good sides to open sourcing, and it's very possible that Soldat will become a whole lot better. Soldat has many fans, and I'm sure Soldat has more "good" programmers on its side than hackers.

Besides, this interview is old, and it seems MM didn't even realize that he'll leave development to someone else (EnEsCe). He doesn't even seem to care much about Soldat anymore, and Enesce hates open-source (or even just having multiple people working on the game) with passion.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 05:00:35 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline Furai

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2010, 02:37:16 am »
So let's make e-survey about open sourcing soldat and show the results to MM. If we'll find enough people he will agree to it.

Evil solution: Let's spam his inbox. :)
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2010, 03:18:42 pm »
So let's make e-survey about open sourcing soldat and show the results to MM. If we'll find enough people he will agree to it.

Evil solution: Let's spam his inbox. :)
I doubt MM will listen to an opinion of random forumers even if 99% say "Yes". What really matters here is the opinion of experienced game developers who already had to deal with open-sourcing a game.


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Offline biohazard

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2010, 09:30:55 pm »
[quote author=Wookash link=topic=37839.msg460177#msg460177
I doubt MM will listen to an opinion of random forumers even if 99% say "Yes". What really matters here is the opinion of experienced game developers who already had to deal with open-sourcing a game.

Soldat is kinda non-democratic, but due MM's lack of something, Soldat means 2/3 of community source. I mean, MM/eC do the code, and community ppl do the WM and maps.

But its true, as long Soldat give few bucks to MM and he dont care himself for this game, he dont give a shit, same eC.

Offline FliesLikeABrick

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2010, 03:34:08 pm »
"Forking projects into separate ones is frowned upon in the open source community unless the project is no longer being maintained or some other pressing reason."  <-- what are you talking about?  It is not frowned upon at all

More importantly, how would they (MM/eC) keep people from developing and building their own client or server?  Like a server that gives certain players extra HP or special <something>?  I'm a huge proponent of open-source but I really can't see this working well.  It is a game that was never designed to be open-source and I see it being vulnerable to a whole host of issues because I can't think of a way to control what people do with the source code.

Offline Furai

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2010, 03:45:22 pm »
Ehh, it was discussed dozens of times before. The best solution would be to enlarge soldat's developing staff from "OneManArmy" to collaborative group. (I don't know if it's a proper adjective - I'm getting more and more dumb.)
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 07:27:48 pm »
"Forking projects into separate ones is frowned upon in the open source community unless the project is no longer being maintained or some other pressing reason."  <-- what are you talking about?  It is not frowned upon at all
It is if not done properly (if name of the modified version is same as the original, for example). I've seen something like that before - a program with exactly the same name, but very different versions of it.
But if the name clearly states that it's some sort of mod - that should be fine.

More importantly, how would they (MM/eC) keep people from developing and building their own client or server?  I'm a huge proponent of open-source but I really can't see this working well.  It is a game that was never designed to be open-source and I see it being vulnerable to a whole host of issues because I can't think of a way to control what people do with the source code.
There doesn't have to be a complete control over everything. Control over the "official" server and client should be enough.

For example, there are tons of mods for Half-Life, Unreal Tournament and other games, but most of those mods exist separately from the main game (take Half-Life and Counter-Strike as an example).
If a game is open-source - there's still a place for closed-source security elements, server and client verifiers and such. These could be used to have some control over modified versions of clients and servers.

Like a server that gives certain players extra HP or special <something>?
can't you already do that with scripting? ;O
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 07:29:32 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline Veritas

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2010, 04:11:53 am »
"Forking projects into separate ones is frowned upon in the open source community unless the project is no longer being maintained or some other pressing reason."  <-- what are you talking about?  It is not frowned upon at all
"There is a strong social pressure against forking projects. It does not happen except under plea of dire necessity, with much public self-justification, and requires re-naming." - ESR

Quote
More importantly, how would they (MM/eC) keep people from developing and building their own client or server?
You don't. It's open source.

Quote
It is a game that was never designed to be open-source and I see it being vulnerable to a whole host of issues
There's no issue that can't be fixed, given enough time.

Quote
because I can't think of a way to control what people do with the source code.
GPL to keep any derivatives open-source; the pressure of keeping the developer and user community together to keep people working on the main branch; the ability of the upstream people to decide what does or doesn't go in the final build. I don't know why this strategy would work for 99% of other open-source projects and not here.
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Offline FliesLikeABrick

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 11:43:25 am »
Veritas, but you're ignoring the underlying point of my post:

How do you keep people from creating clients and servers which give them unfair advantages? 

Offline biohazard

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 12:52:27 pm »
i think its very true. Even if Soldat grew from nothing for a almost playable nice game, itself structure is not coded to be "standard" and allow other ppl understand.

Like, openSoldat, will be coded to be opensource from the very start. So if Soldat become nice to play after some releases, oS will be even greater after some feedback. Just need a kick to things start on roll.

Offline FliesLikeABrick

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Re: Open Sourcing Soldat
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 01:08:53 pm »
Yes, I 100% support the openSoldat project and will do anything I can to help them succeed.