Author Topic: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades  (Read 8825 times)

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Offline GAMEOVER

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2012, 11:14:52 pm »
atleast I know where to find lower intelligence.

Offline Clawbug

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 07:34:00 am »
the LAW already has its fair share of kills,

[citation needed]
Quote
and is the only secondary weapon that's close to being balanced.
Based on what? What is your definition of balance in this context?

Last time I saw weapon usage statistics from competitive scene(I think it was SCTFL), knife had around 80 % share of the secondary kills. I guess there hasn't been such weapon usage statistics gathering for some time now? Besides, I find it very hard to believe this would've changed much during the past few years, since the trend has been to play smaller and more fast-paced maps where LAW's limitations make it even less favorable against the flexibility of knife.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:39:27 am by Clawbug »
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13th_account

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 09:15:36 am »
the LAW already has its fair share of kills,

[citation needed]

Just from the stats I have readily available to me...

SCTFL 19 (1.6.2)
Code: [Select]
HK MP5        52897  29%
FN Minimi     33488  18%
Steyr AUG     25761  14%
Spas-12       20287  11%
Ak-74         20261  11%
Ruger 77      12509   7%
M79            8448   5%
Desert Eagles  6494   4%
Barrett M82A1  4071   2%
XM214 Minigun   423   0%

Combat Knife 19400  77%
LAW           5081  20%
USSOCOM        745   3%
Chainsaw        66   0%

Grenade 55386  21% (of total)
Hands    2813   1%

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)
Code: [Select]
Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%


Quote
and is the only secondary weapon that's close to being balanced.
Based on what? What is your definition of balance in this context?

Balance for the secondaries would be 25% usage for all weapons, while they're fun and in check with the primaries.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 09:45:26 am »
Low % of use for SOCCOM may be due to low % for M79/Barrett, which are what you usually compensate with a faster weapon. Since autos are more popular, it's no surprise people choose one-shots as secondaries in competitive scene more often. Stats might be very different in pubs.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:53:17 am by L[0ne]R »

Offline Clawbug

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 09:51:22 am »
Just from the stats I have readily available to me...

SCTFL 19 (1.6.2)
Code: [Select]
HK MP5        52897  29%
FN Minimi     33488  18%
Steyr AUG     25761  14%
Spas-12       20287  11%
Ak-74         20261  11%
Ruger 77      12509   7%
M79            8448   5%
Desert Eagles  6494   4%
Barrett M82A1  4071   2%
XM214 Minigun   423   0%

Combat Knife 19400  77%
LAW           5081  20%
USSOCOM        745   3%
Chainsaw        66   0%

Grenade 55386  21% (of total)
Hands    2813   1%

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)
Code: [Select]
Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%
Interestnig, thank you.


Quote
Balance for the secondaries would be 25% usage for all weapons, while they're fun and in check with the primaries.

This is pretty much impossible to achieve in practice because of Chainsaw. Also the way Socom differs from LAW and Knife makes it essentially a weapon of choice for different plaing style rather than an direct 1-to-1 competitor against LAW and Knife. As such the focus should be on maintaining the balance between LAW and Knife as even as possible(because they are the only 1-shot killers in the group) -  of course not doing headless decisions "just bacause". I really don't see how removing LAW startuptime could do any harm in the current situation - at best it would make the two more balanced and make the game more fun by making it even more fast-paced. As you know, it's still the reason some of us long for 1.2/1.2.1/pre-1.3+.

IMO weapons should be balanced first and foremost within their own categories, autos should be in balance with each other, semis with each other and 1-shot killers with each other. Simply buffing what's less-used and nerfing what's more-used isn't really a solution, rather, as we both agree, weapon potential and maximum potential should be in balance too.

Low % of use for SOCCOM may be due to low % for M79/Barrett, which are what you usually compensate with a faster weapon. Since autos are more popular, it's no surprise people choose one-shots as secondaries in competitive scene more often. Stats might be very different in pubs.

Or simply because of the fact that Socom kills just so much slower than other secondaries. The situations in which you rely on your secondary are just those split-second chances to kill them. You don't have time to run circles around them and trying to hit them while they just nade you away. Basically the only thing that matters in competitive scene is the time it takes for you to kill your enemy. Considering the small, close-quarters maps(Guardian, Ash, Rotten etc) played in competitive 3v3 CTF games, it is only logical not to rely on Socom regardless of your primary weapon. In general there are no "roles", nobody "defends", nobody "gives support". Everyone just rushes in, kills whatever comes around and tries to grab the flag. Of course there are slight variations to this but they are rare and very niche, map/team/case specific adjustments.

The reason for lack of M79/Barrett kills is the fact that you want reliability, you don't want to take risks that "if I miss this shot, I get killed and the enemy has high probability of capturing our flag". Also again, the maps. In small maps(which are the trend, for fast-paced gameplay and constant ADHD-like action) the fireinterval(the time between shots) is so huge that it's not uncommon for the enemy which you just killed to spawn and kill you before you get a chance to shoot again. Also maps nowadays don't really have "main/alt" routes as old maps used to have. It made sense to use Barrett/M79 in alt route and couple that with Socom - enemy which used knife couldn't get to you if you kept enough distance by backing off, giving you the defensive advantage too. In modern maps that's not the case.

Maps, maps and maps. Sadly they define the weapon balance.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 10:18:45 am by Clawbug »
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Offline Vucgy92

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Re: Steyr Aug, Law, and Grenades
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 03:08:30 pm »
Low % of use for SOCCOM may be due to low % for M79/Barrett, which are what you usually compensate with a faster weapon. Since autos are more popular, it's no surprise people choose one-shots as secondaries in competitive scene more often. Stats might be very different in pubs.

DE-Knife/SAW
MP-LAW
AK-LAW
AUG-LAW
SPAS-Knife
RUGER-Knife/Socom
M79-Socom
M82-Socom
M249-LAW
Chaingun-...

Also the map matters if its a long range i use Barret,Ruger what means socom
And on Smaller/Mid maps auto weapons meaning LAW / Knife / Saw
Choose one,
Bonecrusher