Soldat PolyWorks 2 (WIP)

[Shoozza]

Hi I'm rewriting Soldat PolyWorks - currently the most popular Soldat Mapeditor and would like to get some feedback.

Main reason is that PolyWorks was written in Visual Basic 6 an old and unsupported language (it was released in 1998).
Another reason is that Soldat tools should be available on the same systems as Soldat (porting Soldat to GNU/Linux and Mac OS X is one of my Soldat related goals).

Main Features:

• Crossplatform support (GNU/Linux, Mac OS X, Windows)
• Easy, Minimal and Clean GUI
• Extendable via Scripting and Plugins
• Open and edit multiple Maps
• Layer support
• Polygon/Scenery Grouping/Locking
• Multilingual User Interface
• Good help system (with Help overlays)
• Own map format for saving with extra info (undo history, notes, layers, sketches, current view, etc)

Advanced stuff if time permits:

• Autosave
• Polygon drawing with automatic triangulation
• Component/Shape library (improved Prefab handling)
• Online mode, for more than one mapper working on the same map
• Views: viewing multiple areas of a single or multiple open Maps at the same time
• ...

Please check out the Mockups the current screenshot GUI is temporary and will change once I finally decide on how the GUI should look like
Mockups:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_2.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_3.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_4.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_5.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_6.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2394029/Screenshots/soldat_polyworks_2_mockup_7.png


Screenshots:

First public posted screenshot:


Updated version:


GUI mockup implementation:



Please let me know what you think, what you like and what do dislike.

[DelintiQ]

Ash looks great, for play without texture files =D

[As de Espada]

Really good! It will be an awesome tool. I'll give more feedback via irc.

[Shoozza]

Ash looks great, for play without texture files =D

Please also check out the Mockups the screenshot GUI will change
I mainly want to know how you use PolyWorks so I can make it easier for you to edit maps thats why I added the Mockups.

Really good! It will be an awesome tool. I'll give more feedback via irc.

Don't forget to add the main points back to the thread so I can read them again

[xmRipper]

Shoozza did you use any tool to draw these mockups or they are just your hand-made drawings?

[jrgp]

What widget toolkit is that? Or are you going to use WinAPI for Windows and something cross platform (eg QT/WX) for the other two? I didn't mention GTK because it isn't native on Mac and requires X11.

[Shoozza]

Shoozza did you use any tool to draw these mockups or they are just your hand-made drawings?

I use a tool called Pencil: http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Home.aspx

What widget toolkit is that? Or are you going to use WinAPI for Windows and something cross platform (eg QT/WX) for the other two? I didn't mention GTK because it isn't native on Mac and requires X11.

I'm writing it in Lazarus/Delphi. I think it allows me to choose between QT and GTK when compiling for GNU/Linux.
It uses Carbon for the Mac OS X GUI so I guess X11 is not necessary.

[xmRipper]

Ok thanks that will help me a lot

[L[0ne]R]

My opinion on mockups (because I'm a damn big deal ).

I'd stay away from MacOS-like dock with resizing icons. It looks fancy but not practical with small icons. A single row sidebar or a 2-row window like on mockup 1 and 2 would be easier to use. Another thing to consider is a sidebar on the right with potential features like layers which can be locked, hidden, or have some other effect applied to them. Config could be moved inside one of the dropdown menus instead of having its own personal button. Speaking of config window - it looks rather messy. Are you sure there will be this many settings? For example, does Theme really need a whole separate tab? Title bar could also be a bit more compact IMHO. For example, "window" menu could be moved inside "view". "Texture" could instead be part of a sidebar or a small window like it is now in polyworks.

So you could have this:
File - save/open/close FILE.
Edit - edit CONTENTS of that file.
View - change how you SEE your workspace.
Help - INFORMATION about the program and its status.

Then have all the tools in one sidebar/window, and additional things like texture picker, layers, etc in another sidebar. Pretty much how photoshop or most other graphic editors do it, even Polyworks 1 does it very similarly.

Also keep in mind the possibility of making maps from within Soldat itself, so players can edit and play the map at the same time. Maybe some of that PW2 code will help achieving that.

[jrgp]

What widget toolkit is that? Or are you going to use WinAPI for Windows and something cross platform (eg QT/WX) for the other two? I didn't mention GTK because it isn't native on Mac and requires X11.

I'm writing it in Lazarus/Delphi. I think it allows me to choose between QT and GTK when compiling for GNU/Linux.
It uses Carbon for the Mac OS X GUI so I guess X11 is not necessary.

Why don't you use C++ instead? Are you forking or using bits of code from the original map editor that's in Delphi?

[Shoozza]

I'd stay away from MacOS-like dock with resizing icons. It looks fancy but not practical with small icons. A single row sidebar or a 2-row window like on mockup 1 and 2 would be easier to use.

The dock would be too difficult to quickly aim - true. It would be good if there are too many items in tools though. Another way would be to add second actions for the button which you could switch to.

Another thing to consider is a sidebar on the right with potential features like layers which can be locked, hidden, or have some other effect applied to them.

All right panel stuff is missing currently. But somehow you are the first one who notices it.

Config could be moved inside one of the dropdown menus instead of having its own personal button.

Dropdown menus you mean the hidden menubar?
Not sure if moving the config in the menu (which is hidden) is helpful for new people.
The button seems to be a simple solution for changing settings and it doesn't take much space either.
Or why do you want to move it somewhere else?

Speaking of config window - it looks rather messy. Are you sure there will be this many settings? For example, does Theme really need a whole separate tab?

Im not sure if it needs it but I just was quickly added stuff so if you know better primary tab entries let me know. What are the other issues you see with it?

Title bar could also be a bit more compact IMHO. For example, "window" menu could be moved inside "view". "Texture" could instead be part of a sidebar or a small window like it is now in polyworks.

You don't think the titlebar in menu 5 is good? It has a minimal space for dragging and maximizing (by double click) but that space could be hidden in fullscreen.
I see no reason to make the menu deeper as there is plenty of room for it when its visible (it's hidden by default and can be showed by pressing alt or making it always visible in options).

Then have all the tools in one sidebar/window, and additional things like texture picker, layers, etc in another sidebar. Pretty much how photoshop or most other graphic editors do it, even Polyworks 1 does it very similarly.

The other sidebar controls will be added later.

Also keep in mind the possibility of making maps from within Soldat itself, so players can edit and play the map at the same time. Maybe some of that PW2 code will help achieving that.

Yeah ingame mapeditor idea was there for a long time but it's not high priority but since PW2 is written in the same language as Soldat it could be integrated.

Thanks for the feedback!

Why don't you use C++ instead?

It will be part of the official repo, Lazarus/FPC is good enough for this, code reuse in and from Soldat is easily possible (keep stuff in sync while updating the game).
Works out of the box without redist kit installs on Windows.

Are you forking or using bits of code from the original map editor that's in Delphi?

Currently not. The only thing might be the rendering code which I wrote years back for ARSSE but never used it.
I'm not sure if I used the old Mapeditor code thought.

[jrgp]

Why don't you use C++ instead?

It will be part of the official repo, Lazarus/FPC is good enough for this, code reuse in and from Soldat is easily possible (keep stuff in sync while updating the game).
Works out of the box without redist kit installs on Windows.

If this is going to be open source, and it's sharing little bits of code with Soldat, does that mean some of Soldat's source will be public?

I guess I assume'd you'd make the source for your map editor public (like your old intentions with OpenSoldat) but I guess I don't see any mention of that in your posts.

[Dusty]

I'm surprised people actually use the tool box as the hotkeys for different tools in PW are very easy to learn. I hid the tool box years ago.

[Shoozza]

Why don't you use C++ instead?

It will be part of the official repo, Lazarus/FPC is good enough for this, code reuse in and from Soldat is easily possible (keep stuff in sync while updating the game).
Works out of the box without redist kit installs on Windows.

If this is going to be open source, and it's sharing little bits of code with Soldat, does that mean some of Soldat's source will be public?

I guess I assume'd you'd make the source for your map editor public (like your old intentions with OpenSoldat) but I guess I don't see any mention of that in your posts.

It will be mostly the other way around Soldat will use code from PW2 stuff like the mapformat is already available publicly via the old Mapeditor.
I wanted to keep stuff focused on the design stuff and not on licensing and programming languages as they don't matter for the normal user of Polyworks.
I will be probably opensource it but not at the beginning (else you would see the src in this post or the devlog long ago). Currently I don't think it matters.
It needs a good base first to encourage people to work on it.

I'm surprised people actually use the tool box as the hotkeys for different tools in PW are very easy to learn. I hid the tool box years ago.

True but new users have to learn the hotkeys. Buttons with stuff like tooltips with hotkey info would help

[machina]

Will be PMS improved to add little miniature of map and other data like Creator etc...

[duz]

Online mode, for more than one mapper working on the same map

Nice !!!

[Shoozza]

Will be PMS improved to add little miniature of map and other data like Creator etc...

PMS will stay the same.
This is not about improving the mapformat please stay on topic.

[L[0ne]R]

The dock would be too difficult to quickly aim - true. It would be good if there are too many items in tools though. Another way would be to add second actions for the button which you could switch to.

If there are so many tools that even a two-columns-wide full-height sidebar is not enough - you're doing something wrong. Polyworks is simpler than photoshop, so if photoshop can fit all its tools in a simple sidebar - then PW2 can too. Yet another photoshop reference: some of the buttons in its sidebar reveal additional tools if you click-and-hold on them. For example, if you click and hold on "Brush" tool - you'll also see icons pop up for Pencil, Mixer Brush and Color Replacement tool. If there really are that many tools - they could be grouped in a similar way.

All right panel stuff is missing currently. But somehow you are the first one who notices it.

Thats because I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE sidebars.

Dropdown menus you mean the hidden menubar?
Not sure if moving the config in the menu (which is hidden) is helpful for new people.
The button seems to be a simple solution for changing settings and it doesn't take much space either.
Or why do you want to move it somewhere else?

By dropdown menus I mean "File/Edit/Texture/View/Window" menus in the title bar.
From my experience many programs have config/preferences/options button located in one of such menus instead of having a separate button in a different place (though I've seen some programs use the latter too). I think thats where most users will go looking if they want to change some settings. They will definitely notice the menus in the title bar because every program has them, but not everyone will immediately notice a small button in the opposite corner. It doesn't make a huge difference really, but I think placing it in the dropdown menu is a safer and more reliable solution than a button that has to be coded and maintained separately.
Though on the other hand, it's placed in different menus in different programs, so unless menu names are obvious enough - user might end up having to look through multiple menus in order to find the button. :S Gah, I don't know...

Im not sure if it needs it but I just was quickly added stuff so if you know better primary tab entries let me know. What are the other issues you see with it?

Well, here's how I would group things up:
General Settings - File paths, file extensions, updater - most common settings that you'd find in any program.
Interface - Theme, Language, Hotkeys.
Network - Privacy, Online editing
Map Settings - IMHO doesn't belong in config at all. Config is about customizing how the program works, so map settings don't belong there (unless it's about how the program displays maps). With most programs you set them up the way you want and then don't touch the config again. Map settings is something you'll change very often when working on different maps, so having it in "Edit" dropdown menu would be more accessible.
Report Bug - belongs in the "Help" dropdown menu (you already have bugtracker there).
Collection Settings - not quite sure what that is. :S
Welcome page - unnecessary, instead maybe use "about" window in "help" menu.

Additionally, a tree-like appearance would help organize and group things a bit. Here's an example from Miranda IM's options window (see attached image)

You don't think the titlebar in menu 5 is good? It has a minimal space for dragging and maximizing (by double click) but that space could be hidden in fullscreen.
I see no reason to make the menu deeper as there is plenty of room for it when its visible (it's hidden by default and can be showed by pressing alt or making it always visible in options).

It just bugs me a bit how all other menus have a more general purpose, but then there's another menu dedicated exclusively to textures. Functionality and appearance-wise I have no complaints, though I would suggest having tabs and titlebar on separate rows, so that no matter how many tabs you have - you still won't have to hide/unhide title bar.

[Shoozza]

The mockups are independent (mostly). I changed the mockups based on feedback ;P (higher number = newer mockup)

If there are so many tools that even a two-columns-wide full-height sidebar is not enough - you're doing something wrong. Polyworks is simpler than photoshop, so if photoshop can fit all its tools in a simple sidebar - then PW2 can too. Yet another photoshop reference: some of the buttons in its sidebar reveal additional tools if you click-and-hold on them. For example, if you click and hold on "Brush" tool - you'll also see icons pop up for Pencil, Mixer Brush and Color Replacement tool. If there really are that many tools - they could be grouped in a similar way.

I know that you can group them (mentioned it in my last post in a similar way).
The idea is that users could add their own tools to the tools menu via scripting/plugins.

But i guess grouping could work out well.

By dropdown menus I mean "File/Edit/Texture/View/Window" menus in the title bar.
From my experience many programs have config/preferences/options button located in one of such menus instead of having a separate button in a different place (though I've seen some programs use the latter too). I think thats where most users will go looking if they want to change some settings. They will definitely notice the menus in the title bar because every program has them, but not everyone will immediately notice a small button in the opposite corner. It doesn't make a huge difference really, but I think placing it in the dropdown menu is a safer and more reliable solution than a button that has to be coded and maintained separately.
Though on the other hand, it's placed in different menus in different programs, so unless menu names are obvious enough - user might end up having to look through multiple menus in order to find the button. :S Gah, I don't know...

The config menu button was inspired by Chrome. The other idea was to have a tab with config like you can see in mockup 6.
The menubar could have the same settings so you have two ways to reach it.

Well, here's how I would group things up:
General Settings - File paths, file extensions, updater - most common settings that you'd find in any program.
Interface - Theme, Language, Hotkeys.
Network - Privacy, Online editing
Map Settings - IMHO doesn't belong in config at all. Config is about customizing how the program works, so map settings don't belong there (unless it's about how the program displays maps). With most programs you set them up the way you want and then don't touch the config again. Map settings is something you'll change very often when working on different maps, so having it in "Edit" dropdown menu would be more accessible.
Report Bug - belongs in the "Help" dropdown menu (you already have bugtracker there).
Collection Settings - not quite sure what that is. :S
Welcome page - unnecessary, instead maybe use "about" window in "help" menu.

Map settings somehow don't work yeah. Any idea where to put them in the map tab?
Report Bug could be moved into a Help group.
I'm not sure about Collection Settings either lets leave it out for now
Welcome page would get displayed when you run PW2 it would show the last opened maps and other information and links to other stuff like help so you could get started easily.

Additionally, a tree-like appearance would help organize and group things a bit. Here's an example from Miranda IM's options window (see attached image)

It just bugs me a bit how all other menus have a more general purpose, but then there's another menu dedicated exclusively to textures. Functionality and appearance-wise I have no complaints, though I would suggest having tabs and titlebar on separate rows, so that no matter how many tabs you have - you still won't have to hide/unhide title bar.

I personally find Mirandas Config is just confusing and forces you to search stuff. Too many options and a inconsistent GUI.
But I thought about a tree like structure and i have ideas how to make it work - if we really need it.
I hope we don't need it though. There is enough space in the right side in the config to show all settings IMHO.

I'm not sure were else the texture stuff should go and i think it's currently ok it was there in PW and no one complained .
If then it has to get yet another sidebar.

[Tehbugerz0r]

Advanced stuff if time permits:
Autosave
Polygon drawing with automatic triangulation
Component/Shape library (improved Prefab handling)
Online mode, for more than one mapper working on the same map
Views: viewing multiple areas of a single or multiple open Maps at the same time
...

Auto-save: Can't see any reason not to have it, as long as it can be disabled and intervals altered.
Component/Shape lib: Likely worth the effort.
Online mode: I don't think this would be used seriously, I do not think it's worth the trouble.
Views: Can't think of a good use for this personally.

I'm not much of a mapper, but a more advanced version of Polyworks may change that.

[As de Espada]

know what would be nice? to be able to create polys and compile them to .pms.
I know it's a WIP, but a minimum functionality would be appreciated.

(...)

Component/Shape lib: Round islands and curves may take a while, to be able to define your own shapes would be nice.
Online mode: There is a willing of most mappers I know to co-work, and to be able to just SEE another mapping doing his job and maybe commenting at the same time is a tremendous incentive for the mapper. I think it will make mapping scene more active.
Views: I believe that the main use would be that you can also zoom the views, so you can keep track of the big picture as you map.

Hopefully mapping will be a lot easier, specially the polygon drawing stuff, and more players will become mappers.

I think that automatic overlap will be also possible, because the rules to overlap are quite known.

Following the idea of in-game map making, a polybug tracker would be nice, a player would be able to identify a polybug and register it. Later that polybug point would be visible to the mapper.

go go go shoozza!

[Fryer]

Following the idea of in-game map making, a polybug tracker would be nice, a player would be able to identify a polybug and register it. Later that polybug point would be visible to the mapper.

I think it would actually be easier to just fix the whole cause of polybugs, than to make tools to handle them.

[L[0ne]R]

I know that you can group them (mentioned it in my last post in a similar way).
The idea is that users could add their own tools to the tools menu via scripting/plugins.

But i guess grouping could work out well.

Oh, I didn't realize more tools can be added.. But I think you're idealizing this a bit. In reality it'll take a long time before there will be so many contributors who'd make so many new tools that it'd be impossible to fit them in a single toolbar. So I wouldn't worry about this for now. Should the need arize - then additional functionality can be added to the toolbar, but chances are - there will never be a need for that.

The config menu button was inspired by Chrome. The other idea was to have a tab with config like you can see in mockup 6.
The menubar could have the same settings so you have two ways to reach it.

Eh, I think you've forgotten that titlebars are also used to drag windows around, and people often click on them to bring a window to front if it's not currently in focus. So first of all it may be better to move all the tabs to a separate row. And once again, user shouldn't have to see config each time he works in PW2. Like I said, most people set up the program the way they want and don't mess with the settings after that, so there's no need to expose user to unnecessary buttons and options when he doesn't want them. I still think a simple Edit/Preferences or even a button-in-the-corner would be more reliable solutions.

Map settings somehow don't work yeah. Any idea where to put them in the map tab?

Why not just do it like in current polyworks? (Edit/Map Settings)
I think it's simple, it works, and makes the most sense to both new and experienced Polyworks users.

Welcome page would get displayed when you run PW2 it would show the last opened maps and other information and links to other stuff like help so you could get started easily.

It could be placed in the background of blank tabs like, for example, Speed-Dial appears in blank tabs in Opera or Firefox.

I personally find Mirandas Config is just confusing and forces you to search stuff. Too many options and a inconsistent GUI.
But I thought about a tree like structure and i have ideas how to make it work - if we really need it.
I hope we don't need it though. There is enough space in the right side in the config to show all settings IMHO.

Yeah, Miranda's config is extremely messy even with just core plugins. I was referring more to the fact that parts of config are divided into groups and sub-groups, which makes it easier to look through it and find the settings you want. Maybe you're right, there aren't that many buttons (at least on the mockup) so that might not be needed after all.

I'm not sure were else the texture stuff should go and i think it's currently ok it was there in PW and no one complained .
If then it has to get yet another sidebar.

Eh yeah, it's not that big of a deal, and perhaps there may be more menus that will go well with it. Nevermind what I said then.. for now.

Following the idea of in-game map making, a polybug tracker would be nice, a player would be able to identify a polybug and register it. Later that polybug point would be visible to the mapper.

I think it would actually be easier to just fix the whole cause of polybugs, than to make tools to handle them.

My thoughts exactly.                         ...now get to work!





Online mode
I agree with Tehbugerz0r that this feature isn't worth the effort. It sounds like a great idea, but in reality it may not be as effective as you think. Multiple people working on the same map would require a LOT of coordination in order to keep visual style, layout, polygon structure and many other things consistent across the whole map. I doubt a lot of mappers have what it takes to successfully achieve that.
IMHO in-game map editor would be just the solution if multiplayer is added to it. This way multiple people will be able to work on a map if they want to, but it'll also open up huge possibilities for new gamemodes with destructible/buildable terrain.

[Shoozza]

Ok so how about this:
When you run PW2 or open a new tab you get the Speed-Dail where you can choose if you want to create a new map or open an existing one or go to map settings or config.

The config tab will stay:
It functions as Window title (so you know what tool you use) and
it doesn't eat up a lot of space as it gets smaller when you have lots of tabs open (like you can see in the mockups).

The menu can be hidden:
It will be visible by default it will have all the stuff you need to work but there are more ways to do stuff (via the menu/hotkeys/other gui stuff).

The titlebars are visible (see google chrome) you can click on them and move/focus the window so no problem there (if you meant that).

Other stuff I want to do is:
Make everything more or less popup free.
Opening files and choosing folders will happen in the current tab and you will be able to switch to another tab while the other tab displays the file chooser.
Error messages and info messages get displayed via inwindow notifications (growl like just inside the same window) or alternatively via an external notification tool.
They are showed per tab so each tab has it's own notifications.

I noticed that PWdoesn't care about alt+f (to open file menu) but instead uses the key for additional options. I would like to use alt for the menu though.
Maybe replacing alt (which is currently used in PW) with shift+ctrl is a good solution to this problem.
Alternatively changing states would work: tab ctrl -> mode1, tab crl again -> mode2, and press it again -> mode3.
But that could confuse users as they are suddenly in another mode (remember how you accidentally pressed shift+alt which changes your keyboard layout the first time?).

Online mode will be added very late (if it will be added at all).
It could help people to discuss maps and show polybugs or flaws in maps (could be done with soldat but thats more work for the mapper

Adding tools to the tools menu will be not much of a problem:
Make people drag them out of the current dock and build own tools docks with stuff.
Make docks grow till they don't fit into the screen then add >> arrows which can be used to show more buttons
Make it possible to move docks and change them to vertical/horizontal.

I'll do a few mockups for that stuff if I have the time.

@As de Espada It will take some time till I have a working version I want to try to get it done in 2 months. But it depends on the time I have for it.
Views can also be useful for stuff like viewing what the other mapper is working on in online mode

[As de Espada]

Something useful: categorizing/organizing polygon types.
Right now is just a list of all the types. I talked to fryer a while ago, and some check-boxes and 2 sections would do:
What collides: players, bullets - then you can choose alpha, bravo, charlie, delta (default is all),  if players is set, flagger option appears
How it collides (only for players): ice, hurt, regen, explode, etc

[As de Espada]

3 tool suggestions to make mapmaking quicker:
Smooth edit - it is avaliable in most (polygon) editors, the idea is that when you move one vertices, the vertices near it will also be affected (let`s say by gaussian function).
Another idea popped into my mind: the gravity tool. It would modify all the vertices near your mouse, approaching them towards your mouse. It would be a way to easily modify your map (to create hills, or whatever). Of course you will be able to control the force of it.
The third idea is the quick split. It would be almost like the split of the old mapmaker: if you select a vertice and split, the opposite side of the polygon split and the new vertice is in your mouse. There is, however, a tweak to that: if no vertice is selected, then the nearest side of a poly will split. As it is now, the split shortcut is ctrl+L, so the quick split would be shift+ctrl+L. And finaly, when you split, the new vertices should be automatically selected

I would post this in the PW2 pad, but I don`t have the link right now
It is in the PW2 pad

[Shoozza]

Yeah the polygon type stuff sounds good.
I'm currently interested in the general stuff not so much into the advanced stuff

I added two new mockups (mockup 7 and