Author Topic: Greenlight  (Read 19048 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline RafiPZ

  • Soldier
  • **
  • Posts: 121
  • You can't spell awesome without ME!
Greenlight
« on: July 09, 2012, 04:39:35 pm »
1. Submit Soldat and KAG to http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/ when it goes live
2. Get people to vote
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!

Offline L[0ne]R

  • Soldat Beta Team
  • Rainbow Warrior
  • ******
  • Posts: 2079
  • need a life. looking for donors.
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 05:05:34 pm »
........that's a good point. Why isn't Soldat still on Steam?

Offline Shoozza

  • Retired Soldat Developer
  • Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 1632
  • Soldat's Babysitter
    • Website
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 06:56:39 pm »
Ah that reminds me...
I will talk to MM.

Have to find out whats the advantages and disadvantages.
I guess you want soldat on steam because you believe more people will notice it - are there other reasons?
Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline L[0ne]R

  • Soldat Beta Team
  • Rainbow Warrior
  • ******
  • Posts: 2079
  • need a life. looking for donors.
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 07:00:10 pm »
Other reasons:
- More convenient if you have many other games on Steam.
- Ability to join servers where your Steam friends are currently playing.
- Achievements can be added at some point.
- Easier updating?

Offline Shoozza

  • Retired Soldat Developer
  • Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 1632
  • Soldat's Babysitter
    • Website
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 07:10:33 pm »
We will write a new updater which works like KAG so it should be as easy as it can get.

Soldat is on Desura already. I wonder how steam and compare. There might have been a reason why MM added Soldat there but not on Steam.
Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline RafiPZ

  • Soldier
  • **
  • Posts: 121
  • You can't spell awesome without ME!
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 08:40:10 pm »
If I remember correctly, I think he tried and steam just wouldn't accept the game (I could be wrong on this). But it sounds like with Steams new "Greenlight" initiative, the decision is left to the voters.

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 05:41:25 pm »
with the next release and steam greenlight :3 ... maybe there's hope for soldat after all ^^

Offline Shoozza

  • Retired Soldat Developer
  • Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 1632
  • Soldat's Babysitter
    • Website
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 06:21:18 pm »
If I remember correctly, I think he tried and steam just wouldn't accept the game (I could be wrong on this). But it sounds like with Steams new "Greenlight" initiative, the decision is left to the voters.
I talked to MM and he told me that he tried it 2 times but they wouldn't accept it.

Told him to add it to greenlight once it's out. Not sure if he will do it though.

with the next release and steam greenlight :3 ... maybe there's hope for soldat after all ^^
Soldat relies to much on drama stories, there is always hope because there are people working on the game ;P
Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 06:33:17 pm »
well, the eats is the biggest issue, I think that's why many just drop the game.
Next version supposedly has fixed some of it ;O

Offline Shoozza

  • Retired Soldat Developer
  • Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 1632
  • Soldat's Babysitter
    • Website
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 07:05:45 pm »
well, the eats is the biggest issue, I think that's why many just drop the game.
Next version supposedly has fixed some of it ;O
That but i think mainly graphics (Soldat looks "dated").
Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline jrgp

  • Administrator
  • Flamebow Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5037
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 01:31:10 am »
That but i think mainly graphics (Soldat looks "dated").

eh it looks pretty amazing under some of VirtualTT's maps and Espie's mods. I think it looks dated when played on maps from 2002 covered in bmp sceneries made in jasc paint shop pro
There are other worlds than these

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 06:30:20 am »
To the devs, greenlight is estimated to launch in early august, by that time a new less eaty version is a MUST. Together with this, having a SCTFL season being run at the same time will make the game look more alive than during it's off season.
Both greenlight and SCTFL will be starting around the same time, holding off the release isn't an option...

Offline Shoozza

  • Retired Soldat Developer
  • Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 1632
  • Soldat's Babysitter
    • Website
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2012, 08:34:10 am »
To the devs, greenlight is estimated to launch in early august, by that time a new less eaty version is a MUST. Together with this, having a SCTFL season being run at the same time will make the game look more alive than during it's off season.
Both greenlight and SCTFL will be starting around the same time, holding off the release isn't an option...
There will be a release this year.
But I wont go into crunch mode just to release a new version with last minute bugs.
Like I wrote already I want a better autoupdater for Soldat in the next release so that releasing often is less complicated.
Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2012, 10:08:06 am »
well, if you're going to hold back the release untill after SCTFL, you might want to wait with greenlight till next SCTFL.

Offline Clawbug

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1393
  • 1184!
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 03:41:29 pm »
What does SCTFL have to do with this at all? Your average new players will NOT participate in any form of clan scene activity for a long time - they don't even know what SCTFL is, what IRC is or heck, what a CLAN is! Look at the public servers, do you see any players with any kind of clan tag who are not active clan scene players? Nope. Why? Because they don't play in publics and because players on public servers don't even understand the concept of clanwars let alone competitive leagues like SCTFL. I've tried talking with many players, tried to invite them over to the competitive scene, tried to find out why nobody cares about clans and so on.

There's a simple reason why people abandon this game, because it sucks in so many ways - the visual ones(GUI and graphics) definitely not being the least problematic.
Fight! Win! Prevail!

Offline RafiPZ

  • Soldier
  • **
  • Posts: 121
  • You can't spell awesome without ME!
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 04:17:31 pm »
To the devs, greenlight is estimated to launch in early august, by that time a new less eaty version is a MUST. Together with this, having a SCTFL season being run at the same time will make the game look more alive than during it's off season.
Both greenlight and SCTFL will be starting around the same time, holding off the release isn't an option...

The website says it will start around the end of August.

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 12:40:06 am »
The problematic part is the netcode and the poor weapon balance.

People look up games before they start playing them, if the game has no clan scene or doesn't have any competitive aspects, nobody would pick them out.

Offline Clawbug

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1393
  • 1184!
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 05:11:13 am »
The problematic part is the netcode and the poor weapon balance.

People look up games before they start playing them, if the game has no clan scene or doesn't have any competitive aspects, nobody would pick them out.

Most people don't just "start playing" a game. They don't dedicate themselves to it at all unless they like it. And that requires:

 1) the player actually plays the game(instead of just ignoring it after seeing the horribad 90's visuals - 640x480 native resolution WHAT THE FUCK, very ugly and non-user friendly GUI from 90's WTF)

2) the player actually enjoys the game and thinks it has future potential - nobody wants to play a game which is "dying", as in, it's not being maintained(new versions come out every few years as it has been a norm with Soldat).

Nobody wants to play a game which has no active player base, for which you can't find servers with players in it. This is a real problem for Soldat, because you can't even play it without other players! These days there are only a handful of certain servers which have players on them, the rest sit empty for days if not for weeks.

Netcode and especially weapon balance are not big problems, they don't keep people from actually liking the game, unlike horribad visuals(which tells them "This game is crap LOL!") and lack of perceived future potential("This game is 10 years old and has no players LOL!"). Netcode and weapon balance become problematic only after the player perceives them as probems which takes them enough time to actually figure out if they even like the game in the first place or not.

Also, how would a casual newbie find about clan scene when it's not present in public servers at all? There are no clan players in public servers - even your usual "msn/xfire/skype" clans are gone. Public players don't give a fuck about clans these days. There is no "clan scene" in publics anymore! This too is a horrible sign about the state of the game - people don't know or don't care about clans at all. How would such players get into SCTFL?

The reason amount of participating clans has been on a decline in SCTFL is that old people quit and there aren't enough new people to fill the void. For example the latest SCTFL 20 had some 73 topics in "signups" section of the forum, while for SCTFL 18(summer 2011) this was 99, for SCTFL 16(summer 2010) this was 126, and for SCTFL 12(summer 2008) this was 170. So, in essence, the amount of participating clans in SCTFL has more than halved in 4 years and has been on a strong decline ever since 2008.

Back in 2005-2006 while I was still active participant in SCTFL games, there were some 70-80 participating clans. For example in SCTFL 7(late 2005), there was only 24 participating clans. SCTFL 8 only had 79 signups(if I counted the threads correctly from here).

So, 2006 -> 2008, from 79 signups to +150 signups. How? There's a clear and sure reason for this. Any clues? It was because of the actual marketing effort put in by the community for the new Soldat 1.4. You can look at the forum stats and see for yourself how in April 2007(when 1.4 was released) there was a huge peak in users online, new people registering, new topics opened and new posts made. That was the real turning point fo Soldat which essentially doubled if not tripled the player base compared to what it was in 2005-2006. That was Soldat's prime time.

What helped alot was 1.4.1 and then 1.4.2 following. What messed things up was 1.4.2 with it's many bugs and broken maps(e.g. the red side of ctf_Nuubia had a buggy poly which made all the objects and players jump around, you couldn't stand still or run) - which were fixed by the beta team in less than 48 hours after the release of 1.4.2. MM announced 1.4.3, but it never became reality and EnEsCe took over, wanted to make 1.5 and made the players play with nearly unplayable maps for some 22 months!

So, back to the facts - the numbers. In 2007 there were some a bit less than 6200 new members on this forum. In 2008+2009+2010 there were some 6400 new members. How about 2011 and first half of 2012? Less than 750 new members. This is fucking pathteic, don't you think? In essence this means that Soldat's growth rate has dropped to less than 15 % for the past 2 years, of what it used to be in 2007 as  a whole year! If we don't forget the fact that after 1.4, there was only 8 months(May-Dec) for growth, the growth rate has dropped to less than 7 % of what it used to be in early summer of 2007!

So, why did things go wrong after 1.4? First, MM stopped development. EnEsCe took over. As we know by now, it was a mistake and only lead Soldat towards it's ruin. Then MM had to take an action, handed development over to Shoozza and the rest of the team. They have been working on Soldat for the past 18 months. What has happened? What has changed since EnEsCe messed things up by horrible leadership and care for the game? Nothing. A few new versions have been more than welcome, but the focus is on wrong parts. Shoozza(while being a great person, mind you!) talks about compilers, refactoring, new IDE, Linux support, Mac support, moving to OpenGL, yadda yadda yadda. Who gives a fuck? Not  a single player at least! Preparing for the future? Future is now, not after half a decade!

Problems:
- People think Soldat is dead! They see no future for the game - they don't dedicate for the game. They aren't excited at all.
- New people look at the game, it looks like shit and even more so when streched to their 16:9 HD-resolution. Many give up.
- Some players play the game on their Windows Vista/7 computers. While the game is 10 years old, it runs SLOW! FPS less than 20 on a modern laptop? Fucking bullshit game. To make the game run correctly, they need to google for solution, or visit this forum, and then finally enable the compatibility mode + other settings from Windows. The player has to fix the game because the game is broken as it is! Honestly, do you buy a car just to find it has two flat tires and then fix it so that you can drive it? No fucking way. You find something better.
- Even if everything goes well, it's hard to find players to play with. Loads of empty servers everywhere, nobody playing the game around you. Need to play on servers in other continents.

Fixes:
- Get rid of the 640 x 480 resolution altogether! Make either 16:10 or 16:9 native resolution, preferrably 16:9 Full HD. Yes. 16:10 is better, but it has phased out. "Nobody" uses it now or in the future.
- Better GUI and server browser, focus on simplicity, intuitivity and ease of use. Integrate Soldat Config to the game itself, or the Soldat GUI to a standalone program which launches the game.
- Fix all the small annoyances
- Make a marketing stunt! Reddit, gaming forums, friends, everyone. Spam them! Not only once, but constantly. Bad rep? Fuck that, any publicity is good publicity!

Is it really that hard? Stop fucking dicking around and do something which matters for new players! Be beautiful! Attract them! Be reliable and provide them a promise of a better future! Show them that Soldat is not dead!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 05:30:43 am by Clawbug »
Fight! Win! Prevail!

Offline ginn

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 10:07:56 am »
When you look up a new game, you should always (and I assume most people do) look if there's a clan scene. For soldat it's pretty easy to find SCTFL, not sure how easy it is to find anything on youtube nor twitch.tv though.
This is why soldat has to postpone it's greenlight appearance till SCTFL starts, then there'll be activity in the SCTFL forums, and I and maybe more people will stream on twitch.tv too.

If soldat makes it to steam, somebody (maybe devs) could persuade totalbiscuit and ask him for a "WTFree" episode of soldat.


Putting soldat up on greenlight during SCTFL downtime would ruin it's chances, as people would notice that the game seems to be dead. Even if it becomes more alive during SCTFL, nobody will care about giving it a 2nd look. That is why it's so important to launch it to greenlight when there is activity.

Offline Clawbug

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1393
  • 1184!
Re: Greenlight
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 10:32:31 am »
Do you not realize that players begin playing on publics, and that most players are not interested in competitive gaming? What is twitch.tv? What is this totalbiscuit? WTFree? Never heard, never cared for, and I believe that is the case for 99 % of Soldat players anyway. Nobody cares.

Of course, outreach is always good, and doing such outreach when the game isn't at it's activity peak would be stupid. However, I think you are greatly overestimating the importance of competitive scene for the survival of the game - people would still play on publics even if all the competitive activity ceased, and people would still play competitively if all the public players went down. However, here's the important bit, if the public servers went down, there would be no new players and as such the competitive scene would die out because of no new blood replacing the oldies quitting because of school, girlfriend, work, kids, ....

What is the absolute first things you observe about a new game? Screenshots. Looks. How does Soldat fare on this regard? It fucking sucks!
Fight! Win! Prevail!