Author Topic: Spawn protection  (Read 2115 times)

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Offline homerofgods

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Spawn protection
« on: November 06, 2014, 06:24:24 pm »
The spawn protection is there to protect spawning players from being spawn-killed right? But does it really protect you?

I can give you an example:

Here we have a common situation where the flag is loose and you want to re-capture it after respawn, but you can't grab the flag before the spawn protection has ran out, and the enemy manage to return it.

As you see, you are able to use the knife while you have spawn protection, wich is good, and I want it to be like that for all guns. I don't know if using the knife will end spawn protection yearly, but I think  it should.


I suggest that the spawn protection will end if you use your weapon. If you fire a shot, you can grab the flag and the enemy can also kill you.

-Another example is if you want to boost yourself or a friend out of base, but your nade will just fail because the spawn protection is still on.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 11:18:24 pm »
I too would like to see some of those annoyances fixed, but there's a couple of problems with this:

1) If spawn protection is removed on first shot - barrett or M79 users get a free shot on the enemy, but the enemy won't be able to damage them before they fire.

2) Returning your flag is difficult enough when the enemy is hiding it deep in his team's spawn, even with spawn protection delay. Letting player manually remove the cooldown for flag-grabbing will make it even harder to return the flag in these situations because it'll be even easier for the enemy to keep respawning and re-grabbing the flag. If you managed to get all the way into the enemy base and kill all enemies including the flag carrier - you deserve a bit more than having the enemy you just killed respawn and instantly grab the flag again.


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Offline Furai

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 01:52:41 am »
Ad. 1) Both of this weapons have start up time? And no one said here that respawn protection will last as long as you don't shoot. He just wanted to end it early if something happens. I don't really see an issue here.

Ad. 2) Yeah, I agree.

I don't think you should be able to use any weapons when you have spawn protection. Knife is ok, though.
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Offline Fryer

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2014, 02:39:52 am »
I suggest that the spawn protection will end if you use your weapon. If you fire a shot, you can grab the flag and the enemy can also kill you.

F12 to this. It's seems like a better alternative in addition to the ones usually considered.

-Another example is if you want to boost yourself or a friend out of base, but your nade will just fail because the spawn protection is still on.

This applies to any situation when you want to use nades after you spawn. In my experience it happens more often when someone is trying to spawn kill you from very close, and you don't have many other options than tossing a nade in their face. With the current spawn "protection", the enemy gets the advantage of being able to throw as much stuff as they please in your direction before the timer runs out, whereas you'll stand there trying to perfectly time that one nade that will make or break your chances of getting out from the situation.

Ending the spawn protection when you fire would elliminate the need to perfectly time any attacks, and also give you the opportunity to end it at an unexpected time for your enemy. This opens up a new set of mind games as well as shifting the balance away from the current seemingly unfair spawnkiller advantage.

In the case with the knife and nades - weapons that don't release instantly - spawn protection should in the event of such a fix end when the weapon is released (thrown). Ending it at the start of charging the weapon would give the enemy a window to attack, which doesn't help in decreasing their advantage.

1) If spawn protection is removed on first shot - barrett or M79 users get a free shot on the enemy, but the enemy won't be able to damage them before they fire.

I'm not sure who you're suggesting is getting a free shot here, but here's my take on both cases:
Player in spawn protection gets a free shot: Except they don't, because Barrett and M79 will still be reloading when spawn protection runs out by itself.
Player spawnkilling gets a free shot: The only change with the fix would be that a spawnkiller can't predict when they should shoot, because that'll be up to the spawnkillee. Currently it seems more like they are getting a free shot than with this fix.

2) Returning your flag is difficult enough when the enemy is hiding it deep in his team's spawn, even with spawn protection delay. Letting player manually remove the cooldown for flag-grabbing will make it even harder to return the flag in these situations because it'll be even easier for the enemy to keep respawning and re-grabbing the flag. If you managed to get all the way into the enemy base and kill all enemies including the flag carrier - you deserve a bit more than having the enemy you just killed respawn and instantly grab the flag again.

This is how it was before, and I don't remember seeing anyone complaining about it. IMO it's a justifiable trade-off for improving the spawn protection.

I don't think you should be able to use any weapons when you have spawn protection. Knife is ok, though.

Is there reason other than biased knife users to have the knife as an only weapon with this ability?
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Offline Furai

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2014, 03:47:22 am »
Is there reason other than biased knife users to have the knife as an only weapon with this ability?
Shooting while in spawn protection seems kind of OP. So if you say it's knife user's biased opinion - how about allowing all melee weapons there? So adding chainsaw to the list?
If the spawn protection is going to be turned off when you shoot or move then I'm ok with using all the weapons available.
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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 05:28:45 am »
I think that the way how spawn protection works already got so much integrated with the game that it'd be too large a change to make it possible firing the primary at any time. With the combat knife you get ready for an instant kill at the exact same time as you get vulnerable, which makes knife duels completely balanced between those who spawn and those who spawnkill. I think that's a nice break off from the rest of the gameplay - where it's usually a faster kill if using a primary weapon - and I would like to keep those situations in the game.
Attackers in these situations do have the option to stay back until they can use their guns, which is enough to prevent gameplay from getting monotonous in the way that it'd always be a knife duel. The limit against primary weapons which exist in the spawn protection actually serves to broaden how the game plays out, rather than to simplify it in a way which would make it boring.

However, it's true that the attackers in a spawn situation can throw grenades in advance. To balance that I think you should be able to charge your throw before the spawn protection ends and release it at the exact time where you get vulnerable to attacks. In general I'd like less situations where the grenades just won't throw.
Of course the grenade would also hurt the spawning player who threw it if it was thrown at an enemy from near point blank, but I still think that the grenade would be a reasonable option to balance the situation to the spawner's benefit because you'd still be likely to survive and kill the enemy. Also, if the enemy doesn't time his attack with 100% perfection and you get it right you'd be almost guranteed to kill him with little damage taken, if only the grenades would work flawlessly.

Spawn protection isn't the only problem when it comes to grenades by the way. A few versions back there were some changes which had a horrible effect on the game, preventing grenades from being thrown when close to bunker doors etc (colliders and bullet colliding polygons). That was a really, really bad idea.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 05:38:19 am by Name »

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2014, 05:54:31 am »
As it is now, you are able to start throwing your nade while spawn protection is still on, that is if you can time it to throw exactly when the protection ends. Too hard if you ask me

About flag returns, I agree that it can be hard to get to the enemys base and kill the EFC and it can be frustrating when a players spawns to pick up the flag right in front of your nose, but it's even more frustrating to spawn almost on top of the flag and not being able to do a damn shit to pick it up! Atleast make it somewhat skill-based by giving you a way to end the spawn protection yealy.

About knife, there is atm no way to end the spawn protection, but you can throw the knife, and it will take demage.

About law, what do you think should happen? should spawn protection end the moment you shoot your law, or the moment you start the fire delay? Same with minigun.

We could make changes to only some weapons, for example make you able to pick up flag or throw a nade regardless of spawn protection. This would mean that picking up flag after spawn is not skill based, and spawn protection would not end when you throw a nade, thus giving you a free nade kill after spawn.
Or we could apply change to all guns, ending the spawn protection when something is fired, flag pickup would then be skill-based and throwing a nade yearly would come at a small cost (loosing spawn protection).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 05:58:32 am by homerofgods »

Offline Name

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2014, 06:36:52 am »
As it is now, you are able to start throwing your nade while spawn protection is still on, that is if you can time it to throw exactly when the protection ends. Too hard if you ask me
This is incorrect. Just tested it.

Although we seem to have different definitions of when the spawn protection ends. The time I mean is when you can throw a knife (not start to load the throw) and get knifed. At this time I think you should be able to throw either of a knife or grenade, whilst I think the timer is fine for when being able to shoot.

About flags I think that's also fine how it is. Killing the EFC with no enemies near it should in most cases result in a returned flag.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 06:43:50 am by Name »

Offline Fryer

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2014, 07:01:34 am »
Shooting while in spawn protection seems kind of OP. So if you say it's knife user's biased opinion - how about allowing all melee weapons there? So adding chainsaw to the list?

My point is it seems unfair towards players using other secondary weapons than the knife. Adding that ability for all melee weapons would still exclude law and socom users, pressuring them to switch their secondary if they are being spawn killed. I'm not saying this should be changed, since I'd rather see the original suggestion in the topic implemented, but I'd rather see either all secondaries or none of them being able to do it than just the knife.
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Offline homerofgods

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2014, 07:34:43 am »
As it is now, you are able to start throwing your nade while spawn protection is still on, that is if you can time it to throw exactly when the protection ends. Too hard if you ask me
This is incorrect. Just tested it.
I mean you can start loading your nade throw while the spawn protection is still on:


Knife is a little different because it was made possible to throw it while SP is still on some versions ago.

Here is me trying to boost out of base: (failed because of SP)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 07:45:06 am by homerofgods »

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2014, 12:47:50 pm »
I would definitely be for some changes on the spawn protection, personally I have never agreed with the ability to be able to instantly throw a knife the minute you appear if I can charge up a knife throw surely I can throw nade or shoot an AK? I mean I do use the instant knife throw as everyone and I understand why it has been implemented but it just looks really strange in game almost like a cheat.

I don't remember instantly grabbing flags causing too many problems back in the day so I am fine for that to come back.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 12:59:54 pm by CheeSeMan. »
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Re: Spawn protection
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2014, 11:27:04 am »
Homerofgods:
The first picture in your post shows your gostek starting to push his arm back, preparing to throw a grenade just as your spawn protection ends. You had to waste valuable time before you could start that movement and it would make you a target before you had the chance to release your grenade. Every glimpse of a second matters in these situations and I think you should be able to start the arm movement earlier so that you could release the throw instantly when spawn protection ends.

On the second picture it's not your only problem that an explosion wouldn't thrust yourself away from the collider because you were still under spawn protection. You also had the problem that there was no explosion to begin with because the gostek refused to throw his grenade.
It just waves its' arm and does nothing and it's exactly these kinds of situations which I would like to have removed from the game. Both when the fail to throw is caused by recently spawning and when it's caused by being close to a wall or a collider. The gostek shouldn't just wave his arm when you push to make it throw a grenade. It should throw a grenade!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 11:31:04 am by Name »