ctf_MFM_r2 (Mine)

[Akinaro]

...

[Viral]

Great visuals overall, but I find it very difficult to discriminate colliders with non colliders - see the image (the one on the left is a scenery, the one on the right is colliding) http://imgur.com/YqJgHDv. he difference between the two is barely visible. Same goes to the other colliders. If you could somehow clear that "mess" I'd be all for making it default. Maybe twist opactity a bit and/or delete the sceneries that are so easy to be confused with the colliders?

Also the texture blurrs when ingame and it makes it heavy to the eye - you should check it out aswell

[Akinaro]

To be honest I did that on purpose.
I hate clean maps, and player need to watch out where he camp(I dont like campers) beside If not my imaginary limit of 1MB per zip for map, I would put 2x more stuff on ground and add background sceneries for upper and lower part. I could put there coliders but its more fun without them.

About texture: I dont have problem with that, probably its your settings with windowed 1024x600(I have everything on max, even if its sound hilarious taking into account that its Soldat)

[nouefexe]

your map is great !!! but it doesnt work well with "no background sceneries" option enabled.

[Puure]

I planned to do similar mine-map but rs/cs heh. I'm a little demotivated now ._.

[Akinaro]

your map is great !!! but it doesnt work well with "no background sceneries" option enabled.

Sorry to hear that, but I have everything enabled in Soldat so I can't see how map look with different settings, and beside after all its just visual remake so I'm trying to put as much as possible in map even if I set my own limit to 1-2Mb per map(depending on size of it)

[L[0ne]R]

This is a nice-looking remake, much more interesting than the original.

My only issues with it are like Viral said - colliders and background sceneries are hard to tell apart in many areas. Regardless of whether you like campers or not, it's important to distinguish important gameplay elements from each other and from non-important ones. Mixing them up beyond distinction is the opposite of making the map "clean". Using a massive texture literally the size of the entire map to add shading is also pretty dirty from a technical standpoint (though I have to admit it's an interesting way of doing this). 

But I guess none of that matters if it's more of your personal art project rather than an actual replacement for the default map.

As an art piece it certainly has more personality than the original. Visuals-wise, I can only suggest making the pillars (The |XXX|-looking ones) and the bridge to look less blue because it really doesn't match with the brown-yellow-green palette of the rest of the map map. Lighting is also rather flat - you have a lot of lights placed around, but there's no shading on the polygons around them. Overall the map is lit very evenly, with little variation. You could make top and bottom routes darker than the middle to make them more different from the rest of the map.

Other than that, looks alright.

[Akinaro]

Using a massive texture literally the size of the entire map to add shading is also pretty dirty from a technical standpoint (though I have to admit it's an interesting way of doing this)

In non-soldat world this is how you put textures, even if its not 3D model(but some indie 2D games with such maps take even 50MB so its funny that you call this  technique "dirty")

Beside compared to making map for eg. Source engine or Unreal engine, making map for Soldat is like kindergarten(you could even watch movie working on soldat map), I would recommend to try making map for one of those engines just to see how many times more combining, thinking and persistence is needed to make even simple model.

Normally I would cut this texture to parts and squeeze it to take less space like im always doing, but I found that Soldat have no problem with such resolution, and as far as this texture have less than 1mb I dont see the point of complaining about it, because:
A. its even x10 faster than this classic way of putting this old small and ugly textures, because you can use GIMP/Photoshop to make map
B. You could not get such effect with classic textures (or you could but using massive amount of polygons)
C. You dont need to touch original polygons
D. you dont need even to open PW to change look of it(just use any graphic program)
E. its still less than 1MB for whole map

Lighting is also a bit inconsistent - you have a lot of lights placed around, but there's no shading on the polygons around them.

It would be too dark if I would start making it more "realistic" because if I would light one part I would need to darker another one, and considering that its mine... it would be black map with few bright spots.
But I think I could just change middle rock part it would fix this a bit, beside everyone can change it :] (check point D)




Beside I would like to see  remake using classic style. Anyone with balls would like to accept the challenge?

I spend about 5h working hours on this map in 3 days(every morning waiting for movie to download) so please no one say "I dont have time" because its a bit lame excuse. And Yes Im working in week, but still its nothing impossible to spend even 20-30min per day for week to make such map. (I spend more time wondering what to eat for dinner...)

[L[0ne]R]

Even in non-soldat world no one in their right mind would take one massive texture and use it on the whole level. The bigger the texture - the more video memory you need to store it. Any sane developer would take parts of the environment made of the same material and use a smaller repeating texture just for those parts. Then he can also take those smaller textures and use them in other parts of the game, instead of making another big texture for another part of the game. This reduces the amount of video memory and disk space required to store all the textures.
In your case - you have a massive texture with lots of repeating parts, which takes up more disk space, can't be used anywhere except that one map, and needs to be edited each time you edit the map polygons. The game (without any custom maps installed) would be over twice the size if it was done that way. Why can't you just do it the normal way?

Lighting is also a bit inconsistent - you have a lot of lights placed around, but there's no shading on the polygons around them.

It would be too dark if I would start making it more "realistic" because if I would light one part I would need to darker another one, and considering that its mine... it would be black map with few bright spots.
But I think I could just change middle rock part it would fix this a bit, beside everyone can change it :] (check point D)

You don't have to make it too dark or realistic to add variation. Just try making some areas a bit darkER or brightER than they are right now.

Beside I would like to see  remake using classic style. Anyone with balls would like to accept the challenge?

I spend about 5h working hours on this map in 3 days(every morning waiting for movie to download) so please no one say "I dont have time" because its a bit lame excuse.

Trust me, I would LOVE to remake more maps and fix up ones I already remade. But yes, I already work on quite a few other things and can hardly find the time for more. I'm sorry it's a lame excuse, but that's the harsh reality - stuff in real life is demanding. You really inspired me though, so I may be tempted enough to put some of those "other things" aside and do a basic remake of a smaller map.

[Akinaro]

Even in non-soldat world no one in their right mind would take one massive texture and use it on the whole level.

I dont need to remind you that eg Quake wars use such technique? and few other games? Take some indie games from steam and check how much space they take compared to size of map... no one care about HOW, its important that it works, its smooth and its take the same amount of resources.

The bigger the texture - the more video memory you need to store it.

Typical resolution for today models are beyond 800x800 and they have few layers of textures... for every model on map. And its not like you have wooden PC just to play soldat.

I know that its not 3D game but give me a break with such interpretation. You want to say that using one texture that have 650kb is bad? So its better to use one crappy texture, more sceneries and with WAY MORE polygons?
On some maps two-three sceneries take more than 600kb...


Make map with eg. 2000-3000 polygons with simple texture and one map with eg 200-300 but with texture that have eg 500kb and see what gonna lag more(and have more polybugs)...
I tried this and guess what? more polygons= less fps and I tried it on crappy netbook with pseudo graphic card from intel.


Beside I used this technique on all my maps and for now no one complain about it, no one even notice this, so its funny that now you looking for trouble here... Its really funny nitpicking...

In your case - you have a massive texture with lots of repeating parts, which takes up more disk space, can't be used anywhere except that one map, and needs to be edited each time you edit the map polygons. The game (without any custom maps installed) would be over twice the size if it was done that way. Why can't you just do it the normal way?

1. That why show me how you would made such map with that look using "normal" way, because for now we have discussion about something that actual work and your nitpicking because... its work and you dont like that... (that how it sound)
2. No one is making map with the intention to remade it in the future...
3.you dont have problem if you want to add something to it or fix polybugs, you dont need to change texture to do this, and if you want to add/remove bigger part you just paint texture again and add/remove polygons using PW... really its not that complicated and you not gonna do this everyday...

Why can't you just do it the normal way?

again point 1:
That why show me how you would made such map with that look using "normal" way, because for now we have discussion about something that actual work and your nitpicking because... its work and you dont like that... (that how it sound)


I dont see reason for further discussion of this topic, because its useless: map work, it take about 900kb(with few sceneries that player gonna have), its take the same amount of resources like any other map. and rest is just nitpicking.


Maybe even today I fix some shading and add something to texture so it would look better, and change some sceneries, but if anyone like to discuss techniques, show me first such map using your way and remember that i use such textures on almost all my maps... and no one complain about that

[L[0ne]R]

Let me just point you to this and this.

Also point me to an article that says Quake Wars uses a single texture for the entire level, I'm curious. Or to any game that uses such technique. Because I played Quake Wars and I've also looked at screenshots just now and I see a lot of separate repeating textures.

[Viral]

I still think that it's too hard to tell apart the particular sceneries. Id rather play on the map looking like this: http://imgur.com/pOMz0Cr than the one you presented, even tho its obviously less appealing, but the comfort of gameplay is uncomparable and you don't really care about these small sceneries anyway (when you fight).

[jrgp]

Mega texture in quake wars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture

Looks like those other games intelligently only load parts of the huge texture into memory at once, rather than all of it. I imagine Soldat does not do this which probably makes it less of a good idea here, at least for large maps.

[Akinaro]

Another one... that was just one example(and still this texture is stored in HDD...), and other games use bigger sceneries/textures and no one complain...

And here we have complaining about texture that take 616kb...
When I check my soldat folder I found textures like snakedesert or zak_grassstone6 that have about 300kb and are made from two or three normal textures and no one complain... Im not gonna even check scenery folder that is filled with images that are simple like hell and have even 900kb...


Beside for god sake stop drilling this topic because its just not even hilarious, its just pathetic.
Most of my map use such textures, Ash remake, ctf_Bridge, etc etc and no one complain about it... and just because L[0ne]R dont like that I used such textures he still nitpicking this texture topic...



I would understand if this discussion was about something that doesnt work, or something that I screw up, or some gameplay aspect.
But here we have useless and stupid discussion about technique that:
1.Work is fast and easier to make.
2.It dont take massive amount of resources, its take the same amount of RAM or CPU than any other Map(or even less than some of them)
3. This map is less than 900kb.  Less than even example of L[0ne]R or other maps
4. You dont need to worry that you need to change texture when you want to modify map. hell! making latest version of it took me less than lighting a cigarette.


Im not surprised that my brother so often bash this forum and quit like last time... I would be more happy for option to close topic after posting it, so people would just have map, I dont care if they use it or not, and if something would be wrong they would just PM to the author...

[DarkCrusade]

Someone's bad with criticism. Toughen up mate, it's just words.

I like what you did to MFM. In its current state, it is amongst the ugliest of maps, and your remake has turned out very well from what I can tell. I can agree with what Viral pointed out, yet I can understand why you don't want to change anything. It's your map after all, so do whatever you want to do with it.

[L[0ne]R]

I just pointed out what's wrong with your map, what can be improved, and why it is needed - both from artistic and technical standpoint. If you think my words hold no value, that I'm just being a dick, or that I'm just wrong and dumb - that's fine. Whether to remain oblivious and clench hard at straws to prove your point, or to open your mind and consider that maybe (just maybe) the other person's words hold some truth - is also up to you. (And trust me, the latter is usually super helpful.) But in the end it's your map, and its success also depends on you.

By the way, the MegaTextures article was an interesting read, but it's still not a good analogy with your method because of the way it works.

[Akinaro]

Im good with criticism if its about actual map and gameplay on it.


Technical aspect of how map is made should not be in your concert, because as you can see map work and I used those textures on about 7 maps that I made for past year. Only L[0ne]R, even if you didnt played them, dont like it just because its not "classic"... hilarious lamentation.



And give me a break with text like "why you dont want to change it".
Change what? give me one reason why I should change something that work smooth and without any problems, hmm?

Deal with it, that is faster and easier method to make map, so maybe YOU should change?
Because for now we have conversation about something that actually exist and your imagined problems.


You pointed few bugs, like lighting and colors, and its fixed... and still you are here and complain about how I made that map... oh right I actually MADE that map, not only talk about it like some people...

[L[0ne]R]

I'm long done "complaining" so it's ironic to hear that from you, seeing how you're still being butthurt about it. If you're still not done foaming from your mouth - we can talk some more, I can point out more problems with your method, provide more facts for you to blissfully ignore, etc. So, wanna keep going?

On-Topic: I like the changes to the pillars, they match the rest of the map much better. Lighting is also more interesting and atmospheric, looks more like a real dark mine but still bright enough to see where you're going, so good job on that. Collider vs. non-collider sceneries remain a problem though, but before you lash out at me as always - my duty is to point out the problem. Whether to change that or not is your choice.

[CheeSeMan.]

Looks sweet, I want to try it out 3v3 see how it plays! Will have to nag zakath to put it on a ladder server when I got some time

[smiluu]

In non-soldat world this is how you put textures

Rage: ~ 25 gb
Wolfenstein: The New order: ~ 40 gb
The Elder Scrolls Online: ~ 80
Doom 4: ~ 160 gb?

Need I say more? The map looks very nice though.