Author Topic: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions  (Read 5685 times)

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Offline duz

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TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« on: February 11, 2016, 06:28:39 pm »
I postponed this post for 2 years or more, but people are more opened now. So here I am.
Every TM/DM map created in the past, default or not needs tweaks in the textures and the overall visual. 1.7 recreated the wheel but here's few suggestions.

Maps that has good visual (again, needs tweaks to fit the HD model) and gameplay flow. I have tested in a public server 2 years ago:
Glowing Dawn - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1156
Mastal - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=437
Tigran - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1309 (this is almost 100%)
Mauveland - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=441
Paradise - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1376
Rugil - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1149
Treetops - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1148
Krab R - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1607
RatCave2 - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=1366
Frosty - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=976
Mossypipes - http://tms.jrgp.org/2010/?map=968 (needs more spots)

You can pick maps like Aero, RR, Arena2, Factory or other crap maps and do a fast replace without any touch in these "new" maps.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 07:49:18 pm by duz »
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 07:19:32 pm »
Great-looking maps (most of them at least), though some of them seem too similar/generic layout-wise. We should avoid adding too much of the same.

I'd love to just purge some of the old crappy maps, but everyone seems to have a very different definition of "crappy". For example I think HH is terrible, but there are people who will defend it to the death. You say Arena2 should be replaced but I think it's unique and iconic enough to be worth a remake instead. Arena3 is the epitome of awfulness and should've never existed in the first place, but I'm sure someone won't want it removed either. Aero has a few fans of its own.
You get the idea.

This would've been much easier if some of the current players would have the balls to just let go and move on (no offense intended), instead of expecting a remake of something that's flawed at the very core. It's not like during these 10+ years nobody made anything that's straight-up better in every way. Clinging to old flawed maps until the end of time will only detract from overall quality of the game. This is something some people still need to be convinced of.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:43:12 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline duz

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2016, 01:51:19 pm »
Crappy is subjective. Every old DM map is crappy with bad visual, poly bugs etc. Arena2 is less crappy than HH but it still shit. I don't like maps where you spawn, run to the enemy spawn area and shot him right after the spawn protection (survival mode). It's like a little box and Arena2 is the worst map looking throught this aspect.

Quote
his would've been much easier if some of the current players
This never worked and never will work. It's like a politician waiting for 100% of approval for their projects.
As dev or someone that chooses things for other people, you'll always be in conflict with someone. You need faith in your ideas. That's how you manage "bigger" things.

Just pick one of the crappy default maps and replace by Tigran, done.
"Valve" introduced new maps and huge maps updates to CSGO and you are afraid of Soldat people? I don't get it.
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Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2016, 02:41:37 pm »
Yes, I agree with Duz here if you want something done you need to just give the power to someone or a small group to make the decisions and then let them do it. Look at the WM, Skoskav was giving the power to make the changes he felt were necessary sometimes players did not agree but atleast shit got done.

There is no point in not changing something for fear of losing some players, there is no playerbase to lose(Especially DM/TDM?). IMO you should make map decisions with the goal of attracting NEW players and that means having maps that look better(Bla bla gameplay bla bla when you first jump in if you think it looks sexy you will keep at it.)

At the end of the day if server owners want to keep some classic maps in their rotation they can do that, so there is not really anything to lose.
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Offline darDar

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2016, 03:16:15 pm »
Also, if people would not like certain map changes server owners could always use other versions. If there was a new e.g; ctf_Guardian introduced which would be horrible for all players, we would just remove it and use the old version for our servers.

If you are scared of changes which ppl. might not like you could at least ask the forums here or on sctfl.net for their input so you'd get a basic idea of how the feedback might be.
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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2016, 03:47:14 pm »
I think it would be better to have few but great and polished maps than tons of bad and ugly maps.

And yea, I really like Arena3 :P I also like the Lanubya and the Snakebite from 1.3.1 (the current versions of the maps are bad, sorry). But yea it would be totally okay to remove them because they don't get lost. You could still run them on your server, you don't need so many maps to be official.

Offline duz

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 08:09:11 pm »
People is talking about CTF maps and maybe looking for replacements. So I think it's time to talk about DM/TM maps too.
Let's talk about it? The DM/TM maps are a lot worse than the CTF/INF.

Post your opinions/suggestions.
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Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 12:13:46 pm »
Here we go again..

Please stop it. This joke is tired & unfunny.

There is good reason these maps have stood the test of time & are still played today, 14 - 15 years later. Just because you can't or won't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Hundreds of maps have been created over the years (just look through tms.jrgp.org), & yet these "crappy" maps are still dominant. That should tell you something. That fact alone is a champion of their quality.

Sure, you can see overlapping polygons, badly stretched textures, all of the above. But these maps also boast really great contour which lends itself to varied gameplay scenarios, nice flow & overall good quality gaming experience.

Ultimately, these maps are the product of someone else's work. Do not mutilate the work of others' with your own bigotry. Stop trying to deny Soldat its legacy. Seriously, you touch these DM maps & I'll cut your f****ing Jacobs off. Also, don't touch ctf_Maya or htf_Mossy. Look at the state ctf_Equinox has been left in.. & for how long! Any maps you modify should be titled & released as such & not conflict with current map versions.

My opinion is that you are wrong & my suggestion is that you should create your own maps, which you can modify to your heart's content, & leave the old but gold maps well alone.

Good day, Sir.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 03:10:03 am »
There is good reason these maps have stood the test of time & are still played today, 14 - 15 years later. Just because you can't or won't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Reason is that Soldat have no new players and only old ones play it and they dont mind it. And one of many reason why it dont have new player base is because new players want good looking game, its a fact and even my dog can understand that game need to evolve or it will end with just few oldfags players who play it just because it remind them "good old days"

Hundreds of maps have been created over the years (just look through tms.jrgp.org), & yet these "crappy" maps are still dominant. That should tell you something. That fact alone is a champion of their quality.
Lots of those maps where used when game was still "popular". Reason why none of remakes/new maps where not used is because map team and devs didint care, and oldfags cry like little kids whenever someone even mention changing color of one poligon.
Game for past years was run by oldfags that literally BLOCK it from improving. Whole deveopment was focused on fixing small bugs and keeping old players happy. No one think about expansion of player base, making Soldat playable by new players that have their needs.


Sure, you can see overlapping polygons, badly stretched textures, all of the above. But these maps also boast really great contour which lends itself to varied gameplay scenarios, nice flow & overall good quality gaming experience.
Its not a problem to remake map keeping its original layout so mumbling about "varied gameplay" is just stupid. New better quality map with lots of small details actually would make "varied gameplay" much better. giving gameplay new feel and new possibilities.


Ultimately, these maps are the product of someone else's work. Do not mutilate the work of others' with your own bigotry. Stop trying to deny Soldat its legacy. Seriously, you touch these DM maps & I'll cut your f****ing Jacobs off. Also, don't touch ctf_Maya or htf_Mossy. Look at the state ctf_Equinox has been left in.. & for how long! Any maps you modify should be titled & released as such & not conflict with current map versions.

Stop that bull##it. If those people would make those map today they would make them look WAY better. If any of creator is still here and would KNOW that map would be used he would remake it without a thinking.
How the hell game would be worst if map would look better? For all those years people wanted remakes, but devs and map team preferred nursing nostalgic old players that need to 1mg of xanax whenever someone say "remake".

My opinion is that you are wrong & my suggestion is that you should create your own maps, which you can modify to your heart's content, & leave the old but gold maps well alone.

The hell you are smoking kid? What is the problem with just improving visual of map keeping it gameplay intact? How it could ruin game beside making it more pleasing to look?  Hell its not a problem to remake map and keep that oldschool polygon style.


Right now you sound like some baked guy who say that its better to use "good old" Torch instead of electricity to illuminate the house...

Soldat need new player base, even in cost of loosing few old morons who dont want to game to be active. And one of MANY things that new players need is good looking game. Its not big priority but it is priority.
There is lots of free 2D action games, and if you put Soldat in steam as it is now, new players will look at it, look at players and just play other game that give them more pleasant experience.

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 07:23:58 am »
Akinaro, thanks for trying to deconstruct my post, but your usual incoherent rambling & community bashing is wearing thin.

Let me clarify. I am not opposed to remakes, in fact quite the opposite. I am currently hosting darDars vs_ map remakes, and in the past have hosted VirtualTT's Arena2 Winter & Arena3 Oasis remakes & the ctf_Ash remakes, amongst many others.

What I do find contentious is that the intention is to REPLACE the original maps. By people who don't even 'get' the originals, stating rubbish like "I don't like maps where blah, blah, blah", so yes they do seek to change the layout or replace entirely maps that they personally have had bad experiences, where others cherish them. So, no it isn't stupid to mention varied gameplay, aesthetic changes do nothing to gameplay dynamics.

Arena2 is a very fine map with unique angles & serves the purpose of when there are few players in game or if you want a fast-paced, quick to cap map. If you or anyone else thinks they can do better then fine, let's see it. In fact I'll support you & host it on my servers.. But don't mount your high horse & circle jerk with 5 people on forums about replacing the original. I gave the example of ctf_Equinox, which is now too laggy to play. Tropiccave, I think, was updated & many people were getting wrong map version errors so they couldn't even join the game. This is what I mean by destroying the legacy. Slowly eroding the fabric of the game. You have remade maps yourself, & you done it right, adding _r in the title to avoid version conflicts. Gj Wp.

I'd suggest making new maps with new themes & concepts is the way forward, however, if anyone deems it necessary to tinker with the old maps then fine. Just don't seek to replace what is already well established. User created content being supported is a great aspect of Soldat & we should capitalise on that, whilst not diminishing what we already have.

On your point about dev team only catering to old players, you are just flat out wrong. The whole driving force behind development lately has been to attract new players. I have gone out of my way to advertise Soldat around the internet, posting links to the Soldat download page on YouTube & Facebook comment sections & in other Discord channels. Even gone so far as to offer points for player's accounts on my servers if they do the same & advertise Soldat around the net.

What have you done?

The DM map I am currently working on..

Offline Denacke

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 08:30:18 am »
I think replacing the old maps with better versions is exactly what they should do. If you wish to host servers with the old maps you are free to do so; just copy the maps to your server with a new name to avoid problems for players regarding map versions and you're set.

Although Akinaro has some difficulties stating his opinions in a respectful manner, I believe he has the right idea on this subject. Don't waste hours and hours of work creating options and exceptions for a small subset of players. The majority of players does not care about the old maps, in fact they'll be glad to see progress and maps evolving / getting better. Having multiple versions of each map would just make everything more confusing for barely any benefit.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 08:33:11 am »
Dont worry I like long posts and I have time today, and I also find reading this entertaining in some way so Im really happy to strip your post to parts :]

Akinaro, thanks for trying to deconstruct my post, but your usual incoherent rambling & community bashing is wearing thin.

Let me clarify. I am not opposed to remakes, in fact quite the opposite. I am currently hosting darDars vs_ map remakes, and in the past have hosted VirtualTT's Arena2 Winter & Arena3 Oasis remakes & the ctf_Ash remakes, amongst many others.

And then:
leave the old but gold maps well alone.

So yeah, you know... make up your mind because right now you have some "schizophrenic" distorter.

 
What I do find contentious is that the intention is to REPLACE the original maps.

Rase your hand who want to dump old maps and replace them with new ones... No one? Ok.

You see? No one say anything about REPLACING maps, but REMAKING them... learn the difference :]


 
This is what I mean by destroying the legacy. Slowly eroding the fabric of the game. You have remade maps yourself, & you done it right, adding _r in the title to avoid version conflicts. Gj Wp.

Nope. Soldat power lies in its gameplay and simple mechanic, not in "how map look". We talk here about remaking or even adding new maps to make it more unified and for sake of new players that soldat really need. Dont try to put current game problems on people who just want it to be better looking, its really dick move....

 
I'd suggest making new maps with new themes & concepts is the way forward, however, if anyone deems it necessary to tinker with the old maps then fine. Just don't seek to replace what is already well established. User created content being supported is a great aspect of Soldat & we should capitalise on that, whilst not diminishing what we already have.
bla, bla, bla, bla, bla...

When do you realize that no one really want to replace most playable maps? People want just existing map to look better?

There is no reason for creating new maps, when we have lots of good ones that just look like crap made in 1998 in paint... We have 2018. Players are used to good looking things and if Soldat want to hit Steam to get new players it need to be good looking. Simple.


 
On your point about dev team only catering to old players, you are just flat out wrong. The whole driving force behind development lately has been to attract new players. I have gone out of my way to advertise Soldat around the internet, posting links to the Soldat download page on YouTube & Facebook comment sections & in other Discord channels. Even gone so far as to offer points for player's accounts on my servers if they do the same & advertise Soldat around the net.

Nah Im not wrong, and actually you pointed that Im right. Because really recently Soldat development moved toward updating game to fit new standards.
But before that for good 10 years of amazing lazy development no one in dev team even tried to focus on preparing game to its "next live".
All we had was really fixing small and not visible bug, adding random features to scripting playing with useless things etc etc. Of course there was few major updates, but in reality no one cared to keeping soldat FRESH for those years. Now when there is no one here MM showed up and said most hilarious thing that he "always wanted Soldat on Steam"... S why the hell he didnt work toward this? This is just hilarious. If Soldat was my game and I would see that it have such great potential, I would spend even 1 hour per week to just push it forward, to get more and more players... But nope. Soldat was never treated like game but just weekend project, and now we pay the consequences for that: game have bare minimum of players and it look exactly like 200 years ago... It dont have even simple fricking autoupdate that would bypass annoying downloading of whole game and devs could fix and add features to it without any date, they would just push it when you start game, and everyone would be up to date.

 
What have you done?

I know that it will shock some people but I actually did lots of things :D Can you believe that?
I actually think that I did tad more that most of old players that are here(or where here).

As I said I did few things, few maps(actually 43 maps including about 15-20 remakes), few addons, few concept arts, few scripts, I even did few graphic mockups and suggetions that where actually approved by lots of other people. Hell I even had few servers including zrpg and jtl that in time where really popular(and hated in this forum :] )
But we all knew how devs treated other people work for past years... its all died in few weeks because they didnt care, didnt want to implement it or they just didnt know how. 10-11 years of development of game and they always used "spaghetti" code as excuse... Sorry but in 10-11 years even medicore programmer would fix it in his free time, there is no excuse here taking in to the account time everyone had to work on it. Its just NOT POSSIBLE. Even MM could move his rump and help fixing it if it true that "he wanted Soldat on Steam for long time"

Now all those people(including me) who did some stuff for all those years are tired of doing anything because it will not be used at all. I did it mostly for fun because I liked doing map in Polywork. But after some time I deleted it all from this forum because it was not used anyway and I preferred to use those assets in other games.

Nosejj recently started doing lots of noise, and God bless his soul for that, but in time he gonna wear out and realize that results of all this are not adequate to time and efforts putted in it. Other tried that even where this forum had WAY more players but at the end no one had real plan for game, its advertising or even proper open for public future plan for it and people moved on with their lives because no one like doing stuff that is not used and no one like dev team that have no idea what to do with them self. Free work or not, Soldat is not special here, there is lots of projects made for free but there people actually know how to deal with work...

 
The DM map I am currently working on..

I could give you long detailed review of it with suggestions and ideas but I know that you will probably get it in wrong way and act like any negative things is hate speech. So I just skip it and say:
Meh... I have seen better and worst...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 08:37:45 am by Akinaro »

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 12:27:46 pm »
This back and forth monologuing isn't really conducive to the thread, however, as you took the time to reply to my points I shall reciprocate, but I suggest we leave it there and agree to disagree on the matter.

Firstly, it was my suggestion to leave the old but gold maps well alone in my initial post. I then went on to clarify in a follow up post that I'm not opposed to remakes, but that they shouldn't replace the original maps. If you want to get chronologically confused and misrepresent me that's your prerogative, but people can see it for themselves.

You keep asserting that I have misunderstood and come to my own conclusion about maps being replaced. The clue is in the thread title. It might help if you read it.
Also, https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44427
So yes my concern over maps being replaced is warranted.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't blaming "current game problems" on anyone, but merely providing past examples of where maps have been edited and it has affected in game experiences. That's just bad practice. Thus adding weight to my view that anyone modifying someone else's work should release it under a modified title (as many people, including yourself, have done), so as not compromise the long-standing legacy of the original and show respect to the original creator. If someone wants to do a spit and polish of another persons creation then the onus should be upon them to use an alternative title. Not expect everyone else to use old_Arena2. Wtf, no. How about Arena2.1 or Arena2_duz_he_even_know_what_he's_talking_about_?

Yes, I know you have made many maps I don't contest that. What I meant is that I often see you complain of small player base, yet do nothing to try remedy it. You shouldn't have deleted any of your maps. It's quite likely I'd be hosting them now, were I to come across them.

You kind of waffle on about state of development.. I'll try not to derail the topic too much but I'll say this: Yes this game, whilst having a lot of potential, is just in fact a weekend project people work on in their spare time. You may not like it but you shouldn't expect too much from this little indy game. Be grateful and supportive that there are still people working on it.

It appears that I'm at odds with everyone else in this thread but I stand firm in my opinion. Some say they'd rather have a few polished maps than tonnes of "ugly" (subjective) one's. I say why not have both. It does no harm to keep them in the zip, avoids map conflicts and honours those who have given their time in the past. Don't just hijack someones creation based on personal bias.

What I'd be interested in seeing is new original maps being created. Surely that is the best use of time?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 12:34:40 pm by You Got Served! »

Offline Bistoufly

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 07:46:15 pm »
1) What do you mean about equinox being "ruined"?


2) The map conflicts issue is irrelevant if the new fixed/polished versions are published in an official Soldat build. (When you install/update Soldat, it writes the necessary files for the maps)

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 09:39:48 pm »
1) ctf_Equinox now lags awfully in and around either teams base / spawn points. For me at least, and I've seen others mention it, too. I'd be interested to hear from more, though, as I experience significant map lag around the bell on inf_Belltower yet others have said they don't.

2) That's all well and good in theory but in practice is another matter. I know server owners who will just dump their whole maps folder into the directory when installing new soldatserver versions, overwriting existing files. Of course it's good practice not to replace existing files but you can't count on everyone to do that. Apply that logic to a player who reinstalls Soldat and you get the picture.

I don't mind maps being edited but it's just common decency not to rob the original of its name/identity.

Besides, this is being proposed by people who don't even like the originals. What are we doing letting people with no interest in a given map make changes on behalf of everyone who does?

Which begs the question, why not put their time & skills to use creating new maps & leave that which has served the community well all this time intact?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 09:42:54 pm by You Got Served! »

Offline urraka

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2018, 01:56:45 am »
1) ctf_Equinox now lags awfully in and around either teams base / spawn points. For me at least, and I've seen others mention it, too. I'd be interested to hear from more, though, as I experience significant map lag around the bell on inf_Belltower yet others have said they don't.

Have you tried tweaking your graphics config? Primary things to try would be Optimize_Textures=1 and Compatibility=1 in soldat.ini. Enabling those shouldn't have an impact on graphics quality and will help 1) use less GPU memory 2) use a different rendering pipeline that is more suitable for old GPUs.
urraka

Offline Akinaro

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 03:32:13 am »

I don't mind maps being edited but it's just common decency not to rob the original of its name/identity.


Can you give us at least ONE example of map that was literally stolen from its author, remade and put in game?

Even if Map Team is crap, all remakes that was made was made with "blessing" of its original author or at least his knowledge of that remake...


And to be honest I think most of map makers would not give a damn if map would be remade. Hell they would be actually happy that after 200 years someone dig up it from mud and polish it a bit...

You act like those maps are some kids that people kidnap :D :D

I removed my maps not only because they where made mostly for fun(not tested, heavy for game at that time because it was back before ""HD"" Soldat :] ) But also because on this forum some people didnt understand that I made them to look good not to be played really, and they complain about some small idiotic things like size of map like it was 1995 year and downloading 5MB one time was just too much....

But if someone find them somewhere and put them in any server.... I dont mind that.
Im not gonna scream GIVE ME MY BABY BACK!!!! YOU ##### KIDNAPER!!! YOU ROB ME FROM MY IDENTITY!!! Thats your paranoid world, not my :]

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2018, 09:27:48 am »
Guys, you have convinced me. I now know da wae.

Here's my concept for a remake of an old crappy map.

I think we can all agree it's perfect and should probably be listed as default straight away.


Offline You Got Served!

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2018, 09:30:47 am »

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Re: TM/DM remake/replace suggestions
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2018, 11:35:31 am »

I don't mind maps being edited but it's just common decency not to rob the original of its name/identity.


Can you give us at least ONE example of map that was literally stolen from its author, remade and put in game?

Even if Map Team is crap, all remakes that was made was made with "blessing" of its original author or at least his knowledge of that remake...


And to be honest I think most of map makers would not give a damn if map would be remade. Hell they would be actually happy that after 200 years someone dig up it from mud and polish it a bit...

You act like those maps are some kids that people kidnap :D :D

I removed my maps not only because they where made mostly for fun(not tested, heavy for game at that time because it was back before ""HD"" Soldat :] ) But also because on this forum some people didnt understand that I made them to look good not to be played really, and they complain about some small idiotic things like size of map like it was 1995 year and downloading 5MB one time was just too much....

But if someone find them somewhere and put them in any server.... I dont mind that.
Im not gonna scream GIVE ME MY BABY BACK!!!! YOU ##### KIDNAPER!!! YOU ROB ME FROM MY IDENTITY!!! Thats your paranoid world, not my :]

A bunch of debris grabbed the game and the game died :) Come on, delete and this post is finished. I started to build negative feedback against this game only by devs.