Author Topic: DM BigBunker  (Read 3897 times)

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Offline L[0ne]R

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DM BigBunker
« on: February 18, 2016, 06:42:33 pm »
BigBunker
By loner
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Remake of an old map called "Bunker".

This remake features heavily modified layout and improved visuals. Spawns for all teams, flags and objects are included so it can be played in other modes. CTF spawns are just for giggles.

This map is not waypointed. Any help with this is appreciated.


(^Click To Get Hard^)

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 06:46:38 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline duz

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2016, 08:30:40 pm »
Awesome! Some old scenaries are contrasting by the blurriness and the bunker scenary at the right side is weird as fuck and I think that should be removed, but the remake is awesome. Replace the original asap.
PS: I've posted years ago about the Charlie and Delta being useless and fucking with the scoreboard mockups. Now you see how useless it is when your layout supports just two teams.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 08:33:34 pm by duz »
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2016, 08:45:39 pm »
Yeah, most of the grass and bush sceneries haven't been remade in HD yet (which I'll try to get done before 1.7.1). That's a problem with Soldat itself though. Not sure which bunker scenery you mean or why you find it weird, can you be more specific?
Replacing default Bunker won't happen until this map is waypointed, and unfortunately I have no idea how to waypoint well. Are there any waypointing guides?

No idea what you're saying about Charlie/Delta and scoreboard mockups.


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Offline duz

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2016, 09:42:23 pm »
http://i.imgur.com/ed2bYZb.jpg a plan bunker looks weird, nah?
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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 11:10:46 am »
I can see visual improvement here, but I think it could still look better to be honest. The shading is full of hard edges what doesn't make any sense because they should look smooth and natural since they represent some kind of earth / rock / mountains. There should only be hard edges to define big changes in depth. Good example is this: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44232.0

In the bunker itself the shading is very weird too, also it needs more contrast between background and polygons. It also suffers from no multitexturing, more than most other maps, but the one texture you chose doesn't fit anyway. You should consider choosing another one.

There is also no light source or anything, all polys seem to be lighted randomly.

I like the overall color palette and theme though.

But I am not sure about the layout. Addind the lower route through the bunker takes the special part of this map and makes it more random. Same goes for the floating islands. This is random layouting and I think there should be a place for unique maps in this game too. Also there is no need to make every map ultra competitive. There are people who like different playstyles. Sure I can't see a reason why your layout shouldn't work, but it should not be considered as a replacement of the original one.

Pleaes treat this as constructive criticism, I appreciate the effort and willingness you put into remaking something and I hope more people will do.

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 12:03:48 pm »
I can see visual improvement here, but I think it could still look better to be honest. The shading is full of hard edges what doesn't make any sense because they should look smooth and natural since they represent some kind of earth / rock / mountains. There should only be hard edges to define big changes in depth. Good example is this: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44232.0

In the bunker itself the shading is very weird too, also it needs more contrast between background and polygons. It also suffers from no multitexturing, more than most other maps, but the one texture you chose doesn't fit anyway. You should consider choosing another one.

But I am not sure about the layout. Addind the lower route through the bunker takes the special part of this map and makes it more random. Same goes for the floating islands. This is random layouting and I think there should be a place for unique maps in this game too. Also there is no need to make every map ultra competitive. There are people who like different playstyles. Sure I can't see a reason why your layout shouldn't work, but it should not be considered as a replacement of the original one.

I have to agree. I personally don't mind the layout changes but they don't really fit the theme of a bunker map, which is supposed to look like a warground (e.g; WW2).





1 & 2: these platforms are really bad. You can barely take usage of them as they are too tiny to move on. You also can't jump from 1 to the top as there is that weird ceiling thing.

All the circles in the img mark unclean polygon edges, which just look bad ingame imo and should be adjusted.

The Bunker background does certainly need another BG color (or colors) and maybe some more sceneries in there (lamps, guns, first aid stuff)
I also noticed a few polybugs and some issues having a fluent movement on the map. Especially all these spiky polygons are quite an issue.
Also, the platform on the right of the 2 does not really make much sense in terms of it's perspective, it does look way better on the other side of the map. Still the perspective and shading and 2.5 D stuff needs some overhaul imo. There is also barely a logical consistency about the transparent background of these platforms. It just does not make any sense.
About the lower route:

you could maybe add another layer of wooden beams - put one into the background and the other one in the foreground
like that: (made that in a few seconds only but i hope you get the idea - there needs to be added some fixting to the end of the blanks so that it will look like it's connected to the ground and to the ceiling)
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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 12:52:36 pm »
It's true the map no longer represents the original Bunker at all, and I gave L[one]R some hard time for that. The map itself is good, but it's true that it's nothing like the original, which in my opinion had big appeal for noobs, because they had more chances with more skilled players due to the lack of cover. This has none of that appeal, that's for certain.
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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 01:26:30 pm »
I can see visual improvement here, but I think it could still look better to be honest. The shading is full of hard edges what doesn't make any sense because they should look smooth and natural since they represent some kind of earth / rock / mountains. There should only be hard edges to define big changes in depth. Good example is this: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44232.0

In the bunker itself the shading is very weird too, also it needs more contrast between background and polygons. It also suffers from no multitexturing, more than most other maps, but the one texture you chose doesn't fit anyway. You should consider choosing another one.

There is also no light source or anything, all polys seem to be lighted randomly.

I know there's room for more detail and other improvements, but there's a few reasons why I did it the way I did:
1. I didn't want it to be another generic "realistic" map, so I decided to experiment with the art style a bit. It's deliberately a bit abstract and minimal.
2. I'm very rusty and didn't have much mapping experience to begin with, so a lot of it just turned out that way through random experimenting.
3. Bunker isn't exactly a great map to begin with, and I doubt it can ever become one so I didn't want to spend too much time on it. I'll only burn out and lose motivation.

Texture is the same one the original used, and I find it fits the art style nicely because it's relatively clean and uniform. Can you explain why exactly the current one doesn't fit and suggest a different texture?

But I am not sure about the layout. Addind the lower route through the bunker takes the special part of this map and makes it more random. Same goes for the floating islands. This is random layouting and I think there should be a place for unique maps in this game too. Also there is no need to make every map ultra competitive. There are people who like different playstyles. Sure I can't see a reason why your layout shouldn't work, but it should not be considered as a replacement of the original one.

Pleaes treat this as constructive criticism, I appreciate the effort and willingness you put into remaking something and I hope more people will do.
This is the reason why I think some maps aren't worth remaking. The remake either inherits the flaws of the original layout, or becomes so different it may as well be a brand new map. Or even both. From the playtests we did, the tunnel was a good addition and served as an escape route from enemies above, or as a way to look for supplies without traveling through a hot zone above. The islands serve to provide some cover to this otherwise very open map. The only thing I felt might've been "random" is player spawns which come from all sides. I'll take another look at the original.

Of course that said, I don't know much about creating good brand-new layouts so I can't tell what exactly is wrong with current one or how it could be made better.

1 & 2: these platforms are really bad. You can barely take usage of them as they are too tiny to move on. You also can't jump from 1 to the top as there is that weird ceiling thing.

All the circles in the img mark unclean polygon edges, which just look bad ingame imo and should be adjusted.

The Bunker background does certainly need another BG color (or colors) and maybe some more sceneries in there (lamps, guns, first aid stuff)
I also noticed a few polybugs and some issues having a fluent movement on the map. Especially all these spiky polygons are quite an issue.
These platforms aren't meant to have much usage. #1 is just a player spawn with some overhead protection which you can easily backflip onto. #2 is just a small spot to shoot into the bunker window from, though I'll try making it a bit wider.

Unclean poly edges are certainly a problem but that's not something I'm planning to fix. It's a bug with Soldat's edge system and a lot of players have edges disabled from what I heard. I don't have the motivation to try and fix what will always be broken. I'll do what I can to fix the polybugs though. If you have screenshots of those - that would help a lot.

About the lower route:

you could maybe add another layer of wooden beams - put one into the background and the other one in the foreground
like that: (made that in a few seconds only but i hope you get the idea - there needs to be added some fixting to the end of the blanks so that it will look like it's connected to the ground and to the ceiling)

Good idea, thanks. I'll add them in the next version.


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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 03:39:21 pm »
I can see visual improvement here, but I think it could still look better to be honest. The shading is full of hard edges what doesn't make any sense because they should look smooth and natural since they represent some kind of earth / rock / mountains. There should only be hard edges to define big changes in depth. Good example is this: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44232.0

In the bunker itself the shading is very weird too, also it needs more contrast between background and polygons. It also suffers from no multitexturing, more than most other maps, but the one texture you chose doesn't fit anyway. You should consider choosing another one.

There is also no light source or anything, all polys seem to be lighted randomly.

I know there's room for more detail and other improvements, but there's a few reasons why I did it the way I did:
1. I didn't want it to be another generic "realistic" map, so I decided to experiment with the art style a bit. It's deliberately a bit abstract and minimal.
2. I'm very rusty and didn't have much mapping experience to begin with, so a lot of it just turned out that way through random experimenting.
3. Bunker isn't exactly a great map to begin with, and I doubt it can ever become one so I didn't want to spend too much time on it. I'll only burn out and lose motivation.

Texture is the same one the original used, and I find it fits the art style nicely because it's relatively clean and uniform. Can you explain why exactly the current one doesn't fit and suggest a different texture?

It's good to get started again with mapping to lose that rustiness. But I would say Bunker IS a good map to begin with. It is not too complicated, also the original map looks terribly bad. The theme itself is very clear too.
That is the reason I do not think your experimental art theme does fit here. I see your point, but this is the wrong map for it. A bunker map needs kind of a realistic look, going into the WW2 direction as darDar mentioned already.
For an abstract style you need an abstract map theme imo.

So the texture should contain something more like earth direction, better multiple textures: Rocks and one for the bunker too. I can't name one, I would have to try it out myself first to see how it would work out.

For the abstract theme you were heading for I would suggest a more abstract texture. One that got less details and is more "flat" and clean. I hope you know what I am trying to say. But again: Imo you would need a different setting then than a bunker map.


This is the reason why I think some maps aren't worth remaking. The remake either inherits the flaws of the original layout, or becomes so different it may as well be a brand new map. Or even both. From the playtests we did, the tunnel was a good addition and served as an escape route from enemies above, or as a way to look for supplies without traveling through a hot zone above. The islands serve to provide some cover to this otherwise very open map. The only thing I felt might've been "random" is player spawns which come from all sides. I'll take another look at the original.

Of course that said, I don't know much about creating good brand-new layouts so I can't tell what exactly is wrong with current one or how it could be made better.

I agree with you that this map could play good (I didn't play it), but I still think the original layout should stay as it is an unique one and everyone likes different layouts. The hot zone on the original is not a flaw, it is map design. Same as no flying islands and the open space. That is what I was talking about in my first already. There isn't any kind of that map in the game, therefore it should stay. Few people should not decide what kind of map is playable because there are many opinions. And I can tell you that I liked the bunker map back then when I was a beginner. When you decide keep working on it, I could only imagine seeing this map as an addition, not a replace.

And it is so funny, Soldat seems to be the only game that hasn't got any evolution in maps. I remember only Snakebite got changed drastically at some point, but it was not for the good lol. Snakebite played way better before, but that is a different story.

Usually you make your first build that is full of flaws, then test it, update it, test it, update and so on. So there is no need for this map being any good at this point theoretically so you don't need to know about how to make good brand new layouts. Try something and test it.

Does a map testing date exists in Soldat? I usually take part in such an event in another game, I would do in Soldat too. Like a weekly map testing session, where you can test new maps.

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 04:45:24 pm »
You know, I also used to think that flaws with current maps are what makes them unique and interesting. Now I'm starting to feel that they're just carried by the fun and unpredictable nature of the game itself, not the map. Sometimes poor design and lack of cover is what helps create these moments. It's still possible to expand upon a flawed idea and create a truly well-designed and unique map, instead of slapping some stuff together and hoping that the game will do the rest (which is the case with a lot of old maps). For example Trenchwars maps are a direct evolution of Lagrange that takes the idea of flat terrain and lack of jets a step further, creating an entirely new mode from it.
That's how it should be.

There's a lot of potential for creativity, but most mappers seem to stick with similar "sterile" layouts without trying anything new, which IMO is the real issue. This map unfortunately is no exception. The tunnel made a big difference in making gameplay more fluid, but also less unique. I'm torn between closing the tunnel off and sacrificing some fluidity for the sake of restoring some of that old Bunker gameplay. I might just do that.


There isn't any kind of that map in the game, therefore it should stay. Few people should not decide what kind of map is playable because there are many opinions. And I can tell you that I liked the bunker map back then when I was a beginner.
It's exactly this kind of attitude why we're having such a difficult time replacing maps though. I understand that some people liked Bunker the way it is. But same can be said about any map. Heck, if Soldat had a map that is just a square box - I wouldn't be surprised if someone said the exact same thing. With all due respect, I can't take these kinds of opinions seriously anymore. They get Soldat nowhere.


Does a map testing date exists in Soldat? I usually take part in such an event in another game, I would do in Soldat too. Like a weekly map testing session, where you can test new maps.
There's no dates, but I uploaded test versions of the map on Falcon's dev server (soldat://176.241.243.15:23070) and we had occasional playtests there with other users and random pubbies. For the next map I work on I will probably create a forum thread early on so I can gather feedback here as well.


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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 05:03:05 pm »
You have to think about it from a broader perspective, i.e. the whole map pool. It should have a good variety of layouts, and a map that is unique in both looks and layout is a good thing to have. I played on the original bunker for a bit after playing your map for the first time, and it was just as fun, even if there wasn't as much variety or really any cat & mouse.

You also have to think about the map pool's skill floor as a whole. There need to be some staunchingly simple layouts that even toddlers can navigate, complex maps with a high skill ceiling, and everything inbetween. The most extreme examples could be lagrange, in which you can just press A/D to get by, vs. various climb maps, which even climb veterans have trouble traversing. Soldat is so much about its movement that this is an aspect in map (and map pool) design that should not be ignored. The simple layout and middle hotspot of Bunker made it an excellent map for newbies, as it both created fun awe-inspiring moments due to the hotspot, and players were more or less on equal footings without room for advanced manouvres. Layout-wise, I think the only change should have been to the bunker itself, because it was hard to enter and thus clashed with the newbie-friendliness.

None of that is to say that BigBunker is bad, or even that it should not be added as a new default map. Another map will just have to take its place as low-entry. Map pools of all modes should go through the same process; high-skill maps, low-skill maps, and everything inbetween should be included.
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Offline duz

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2016, 11:32:21 pm »
Even with all the flaws each player can post here, your remake is way better than the original. Don't worry.
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Offline Viral

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2016, 09:03:44 am »
I like the theme, it's neutral but stands out at the same time, but as some already mentioned - the bunker could still get some love, especially the BG which falls flat (literally :d) compared to the 2,5Dish rest. I love the bg parts around the rocks however and I wish you had done something similar to the bottom route under the bunker. Also at hte current state, the (1) part is quite missleading - it's a bg poly, so the player looks like he is hovering in mid air and the part he is standing on looks the same as the entrances of the bunkers (same texture,color). Maybe moving the metal parts outward would solve the issue (quick suggestion).
I'd also like to suggest a small upgrade for the small bunker on the right, using bg polygons (2). I think it makes it look more like an actual bunker and less like a cardboard mockup.
It would probably require some testing but isn't the jet ammount a bit low? I just feel like it could have more due to it being such an open map.
Overall I think it's a good replacement for the Bunker, as I associate the current defaut one with one big clusterfuck with random spawns. Hated it since I first time saw it and nothing changed :d


And.. you have a bloodydeadly poly inside of the upper right island (not the small one, but the one under it). Probably a random mouse scroll? Or is it a hidden feature? Well i guess it is, because you have got it in the other islands aswell. Purpose?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:11:51 am by Viral »

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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2016, 11:45:23 am »
Thanks for pointing out the issues, noted. Jet amount is the same as on the original map, and I'd rather not touch it, but everything else I'll work on.
The killer polys inside islands are to keep players from polybugging inside them. Did you somehow manage to touch one from outside?


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Re: DM BigBunker
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2016, 11:51:41 am »
I see - i didn't manage, I was just messing around in the PW and i found it ^^. But if you are aware of it, I don't interfere.