1.7.1 WM balance

[CheeSeMan.]

I don't think we should be trying to adjust WM to be more like in real life, I mean we run around with jet packs come on also remember in Realistic mode we already have Recoil so do they really need bink also? I feel that could just make it not fun at all to play.

Removing the Barrett start up time sounds like something that will have a knock on effect of needing to adjust a lot of guns. Anyways why don't some of you cook up an alternative WM so we can test? Falcon seems pretty open guys here is your chance!

[%%%%%%%]

I don't think we should be trying to adjust WM to be more like in real life, I mean we run around with jet packs come on

Picture this: you put down a fully-loaded ready-to-fire gun then pick it up half a second later, but NOPE, you can't fire. Too bad, you have to wait for a completely made up amount of time that has no basis in logic (unlike the other guns) and that you normally and logically would only need to wait for in between shots.

That doesn't strike you as needing to be fixed?

also remember in Realistic mode we already have Recoil so do they really need bink also? I feel that could just make it not fun at all to play.

Yeah, I know and I'm completely for getting rid of bink altogether ─ I just figured if we're going to have it, it'd be in RM

Removing the Barrett start up time sounds like something that will have a knock on effect of needing to adjust a lot of guns.

I didn't simply say "remove Barrett start up time"; I said make start up times equal for all weapons (maybe hard-coded) and then, for Barrett specifically, replace the reload time with the current start-up time. It'll be exactly the same as it is now, except it'll fix the retarded scenario I mentioned above

[Dusty]

remove either ak or minimi, they're kinda filling the same niche

[CheeSeMan.]

%%%%%%% I do not think that situation matters, for me if you were silly enough to drop your gun during a fight well you need to die. Survival of the fittest you know? To be honest if I remember correctly when the Barrett had no start up time everyone played Barrett, don't really want to return to those days either!

remove either ak or minimi, they're kinda filling the same niche

That is why I think the AK really needs to go back to shooting very slowly.

[Monsteri]

Minimi is more useful for a defensive playstyle, especially in larger pubs, thanks to the big magazine. Removing classic weapons in a 16-year old game is silly.

Closest thing in that fashion should be switching the flamer bonus with the minigun (and obviously buffing it) and moving the flamer to selectable weapons instead. The flamer is really crap, there's no reason to continue using it after the invincibility wears out and so it doesn't make sense as a bonus, much like cluster grenades don't. However, if you make the flames ignore walls, the flamer will become a useful niche weapon for enclosed close-quartets combat, in Ash towers for example.

[BKT]

remove either ak or minimi, they're kinda filling the same niche

It isn't always this way, but it have been incresingly made to resemble each other, a process that has been happening for sometime now; and I know why...

I was going to write a more in depth reason, but feel lazy now. So here the short version:

- Minimi was very specialized (and at one point has very high dmg, but that got nerfed really bad...) and no one using it (which is not a balancing problem, it's human problem), so they tame it, becoming more AK-like; that is, easier and less hassle to use.

- AK, an 'avarage' gun and meant to be exactly that, i.e. kinda boring and not excel at any particular way; overtime people felt it's too avarage and too boring so they kept tinkering with every parameter of it to make it a a bit less boring without realizing that it's averageness is the point of the gun, so it kept getting change after change to make it fresh, but for the most part still kinda boring, and some people are unhappy with it. Finally someone say fuck it and that process of 'spicing it up' now reached it's climax in 1.7.1, with it now becoming more Minimi-like in many aspect; it's even get a change to reloadtime to be slower!

This trend need to stop.



PS. Flamer has extremely bad netcode cuz, well, nobody cares about flamer...  It's netcode is even shittier than chainsaw or nade, which is a bit hard to belive! 

[Falcon`]

PS. Flamer has extremely bad netcode cuz, well, nobody cares about flamer...  It's netcode is even shittier than chainsaw or nade, which is a bit hard to belive! 

Elaborate?

[BKT]

It's very easy to see how shitty it is if your ping is higher; every hickups become worst. And flamer is the worst of them all; you can't kill anyone with it unless the target do not move at all and you burning their ass for like 5 second straight, sometime you need to be just at the right distance which maybe outside or within the reached of the flame. The whole thing is a voodoo...

I can't give you a more satisfying answer precisely because nobody know how the thing even work; I even asking you a while ago! 

[L[0ne]R]

Don't know how flamer works either and wasn't able to test it in multiplayer since most servers have bonuses disabled. However it does have a history of being utterly useless in multiplayer, even though it works fine in singleplayer.

[CheeSeMan.]

I really don't think the flamer matters its a bonus, every server I have ever played on has it disabled and I would not want to see it replacing a primary weapon.

[Monsteri]

It solves the issue of the minigun either being a useless gimmick or OP, though. There is one way to fix the minigun IMO - make its penetration much better than other guns', so in one versus one it's at a disadvantage, but can mow down closely packed enemies. This buff won't apply much to competitive play though, where it's usually 3v3 and people are rarely bunched up, so it'd remain a gimmick there regardless.

[L[0ne]R]

I really don't think the flamer matters its a bonus, every server I have ever played on has it disabled and I would not want to see it replacing a primary weapon.

Flamer is still part of the game, so it does matter and needs to be fixed. Maybe if it didn't suck so bad and if bonuses in general were better placed and balanced - they wouldn't be disabled. Laving it as-is certainly isn't going to make it better.

[BKT]

What the old minigun (with 4 fireinterval) needed is more ammo, lots of it.

The current method to re-balance minigun (such fast and stronk!), is kinda missing the point and inevitably leads to the current situation.

[ginn]

Terrible WM, really terrible.

All weapons do 25% too much damage. you die in a split second from autos, around 6 hits.

here's a quick mock-up

DEAGLES
+1 ammo
-4 fire interval
-0,05 dmg

HK MP5
-0,05 dmg
+0,02 spread

AK-74
+1 fire interval
+12 bink
-0,011 moveacc
-0,025 spread
-0,004 dmg
-0,03 push

STEYR AUG
-0,05 spread
-0,015 dmg
+5 ammo
+5 ammo

SPAS
-0,20 dmg
+0,5 inherited velocity
+0,012 push

RUGER 77
-0,4 dmg
+1 ammo
-10 fireinterval
+5 bink
-0,03 move acc

FN MINIMI
-0,1 dmg
-0,03 spread
+0,012 push

LAW
-13 start up
+5 bink

GRENADE
Needs work... 1.0 damage modifer for all limbs seem weird, but it appears to be flawed, as feet still 1 hit kill.

BRT/M79 untouched, would need to see how things work out
Autos and semi-autos would need some work, since I have no idea of the kill times now.

Spas rework is just an idea, you can keep it was it is if it doesn't work out. Point would be to have it a rush weapon, whiel deagle replaces the current spas.

[Falcon`]

Then i suppose 1.7.0 WM was even worse, as damage from all autos was reduced

[ginn]

Then i suppose 1.7.0 WM was even worse, as damage from all autos was reduced

Autos definitely don't do less damage now, nor does ruger.
Only weapon that I have noticed does less damage is DEs, they're quite worthless now.

At it's current state, the game is unplayable... This is the worst wm of all time.

[machina]

All weapons do 25% too much damage. you die in a split second from autos, around 6 hits.

Please, download the latest version of game.

here's a quick mock-up

Must have been very quick because ideas are pretty ridiculous. Like giving more ammo to Deagles and Ruger those were (probably or at least for many years) never changed... or decreasing start up time of LAW that is currently too low imo... or making nades even more bullshit by decresing their dmg so they don't kill while hit legs.

[ginn]

All weapons do 25% too much damage. you die in a split second from autos, around 6 hits.

Please, download the latest version of game.

here's a quick mock-up

Must have been very quick because ideas are pretty ridiculous. Like giving more ammo to Deagles and Ruger those were (probably or at least for many years) never changed... or decreasing start up time of LAW that is currently too low imo... or making nades even more bullshit by decresing their dmg so they don't kill while hit legs.

Retard spotted.

The current nade modifier is 1.0 for all body parts.

ruger and deagles are always either completely overpowered, or shit and unreliable. So they need to be reworked to actually have a place in the game.

[Falcon`]

Grenades don't use hitbox modifiers, the damage is counted solely based on distance between center of explosion and gostek coordinates, which happen to be read from your back feet. This is why grenade to your foot has much greater damage than grenade to your head - because technically grenade to your head is a distant explosion, at least according to damage code. This is also why you "eat" it - if hit in the head, distance is already so high that you receive almost no damage.

And before you ask: this wasn't fixed because i discovered it 2 or 3 days before release. There was no time to test whatever change i'd do to it.

[ginn]

Grenades don't use hitbox modifiers, the damage is counted solely based on distance between center of explosion and gostek coordinates, which happen to be read from your back feet. This is why grenade to your foot has much greater damage than grenade to your head - because technically grenade to your head is a distant explosion, at least according to damage code. This is also why you "eat" it - if hit in the head, distance is already so high that you receive almost no damage.

And before you ask: this wasn't fixed because i discovered it 2 or 3 days before release. There was no time to test whatever change i'd do to it.

Eats are when you take no damage, instead just get boosted away.

Nades should be doing more damage to feet, since that gives people attacking from below a shot, basically just adding some depth to the game.
Though, it would be better if it was fixed, and was balanced through the damage modifiers instead.