Author Topic: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source  (Read 2235 times)

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Offline helloer

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Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« on: September 25, 2017, 05:57:14 pm »
Hello,

After 15 years it's time to move on. Our proposal is to make soldat open source. This is necessary thing to do to keep this game alive for years to come.

Please read and sign the petition to Michał Marcinkowski: https://www.change.org/p/micha%C5%82-marcinkowski-make-soldat-open-source


Offline Nedi

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 06:22:37 pm »
I totally agree with the idea and I hope it will succeed. Let's revive this game together.

Offline urraka

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2017, 07:05:30 pm »
I hope everyone joins this wagon. No good reason to keep it closed source and we've waited long enough for it.
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Offline Savage

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 07:45:09 pm »
Also agree.

Offline Irlandec

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 10:09:46 pm »
I also agree with this decision. Let's make our game great again.

Offline Michal Marcinkowski

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 05:18:05 am »
Hello :)
This has been discussed many times over the years. I was never against open sourcing. The problem is that it would be ILLEGAL.
Soldat uses certain libraries that can't be used in open source software. To address this we decided years ago (with Shoozza) to rewrite those libraries or replace them with open source alternatives. Unfortunately, this was a too big of an effort. If anyone feels like they can do this they are more than welcome on the dev team.
As for now we want to focus on releasing the game on Steam, so we can give it a breath of new air. We need more players. We need to make it alive again. Make it FUN again.

Official announcement: https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44966.new#new
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:29:01 am by Michal Marcinkowski »

Offline helloer

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 05:35:55 am »
Someone has lied to you, soldat now uses only open source libraries, go to soldat repository and check develop branch.

Offline Irlandec

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 02:44:08 pm »
Guys, if MM himself replied to this post it doesn't mean we should stop thinking about our game's future.
At the moment, we have reached 56 supporters of this idea already. Amazing job for a "dead" game, isn't it?
Let's make it to 100 and let MM see that we want a better future for us!

Offline jrgp

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 05:53:19 pm »
Another point to consider: many times people will request something to be made open source, or will open source something they made which was closed for a while.

Sprinkling the "open source" fairy dust on a codebase does not guarantee progress or that meaningful contributions will come externally.
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Offline homerofgods

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 02:13:13 pm »
After a little chat with Helloer I am intrigued to ask what exactly is illegal in soldats repository? What actually is hindering us from at least having the possibility to make it open source?
Since MM is not against open sourcing, and Shoozza is a man of reason, let's find reasons why we should prioritize open sourcing!

It is easier to contribute to an open source project. Right now you need to sign a CLA and be a member of a team, which means commitment. With open source you can just download the source, fix something and send back as pull request that needs to be accepted by maintainer. A lot of developers would object to be working on a closed source commercial project for free. Look at https://github.com/ioquake/ioq3/graphs/contributors  All of those 1 commiters would not join the devteam only to commit one change.

Shoozza must have his reasons to object to open sourcing, and I would like to hear them as well. I understand if you can't go into detail on the code but could you please explain your thoughts to the community in as much detail as you are allowed to Shoozza?

I myself is concerned that it will lead to a divided community, any thoughts on that?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:15:30 pm by homerofgods »

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 05:51:02 pm »
0) easier for cheater developers to create and update their cheats (olivers anti cheat would help here)
1) like jrgp said, it doesn't exactly mean we will get a lot of activity, most of soldats open sourced projects are inactive and don't get pull requests or commits (also only a hand full of people work on them), you cannot compare it with very popular open source projects, you might win the lottery but considering that is isn't everyone's favorite programming language we are already on a disadvantage
2) divided community due to forks, is a risk atm, there was a lot of drama the past 2 years in the dev team so it isn't unlikely to occur (i'd like to avoid more drama as it slows development down and can kill motivation), after x forks then in the end everyone looses motivation, you have x different soldat's and nobody knows where to pick up and so it dies
3) you have to take other people into account and if they would still help, monsteri has other plans and open sourcing would mean we 100% don't get his graphics revamp
4) we can open source at any time in the future some time after the graphics revamp maybe
5) the game needs a someone who merges the requests and moves it forward that isn't different from the current situation and
6) I just got soldat after nothing happened for a long time, i'd like to actually do something to restore the trust of the community in the dev team even if it is only me

In the past we had an autoupdater which was integrated into soldat and neccessary to compile which would prevent soldat from going open source, i removed it some time ago.
I think there might be one more library which could be a problem but im not sure (have to look) but i think it might not be a problem.

That said I'd like to make sure we don't close doors behind us which we cannot unlock anymore. That said I have a few open source projects on github so I'm not against it in general.

The most important thing is the game and that we move it forward - to get more players for the community so people can keep enjoy it, because it is damn fun and has always been that way.
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Offline soldat-game

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 06:54:56 pm »
Too much, you spoiled this game with updates to update fewer and fewer players. After the last mod weapons broke me completely lost interest to play.
You destroyed the barrett and the way you move around the map, you adjusted a lot of things FOR OWN SERVERS!

Exhunter - kill move about
Shoozza - add new system movement and kill barrett
DarDar - kill weapons mod
falcon - development of their servers
Someone - create lags if there are many shots on the map

and .. Shoozza is old hacker :_)  (wEeEeDy :*)
Hey, I wrote messages on these topics (https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=45088.0
https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=45068.0), about deleting this message in this topic.
https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=45088.0

"So nothing was done hahahahahaha" Rekt admins remove this all time why? It does not break the rules.

Offline Moroes

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2017, 04:00:28 am »
Exhunter - kill move about
According to google translator you wanted to write "He killed himself" or maybe "Kill yourself"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
English, please, you lil piece of translator shite. I've got no idea what you're talking about. Wasn't it Ex who was the last person in dev team who cared about movement (I guess Falcon did too but I got it all mingled, it has been some time)? I kinda feel that without him we would end up with those broken backflips which were part of beta(maybe rc) versions. He did some cool SC3 stuff too and hosted pretty good running servers. He has unfortunately dissapeared  ::)
Shoozza - add new system movement and kill barrett
Dunno bout this, I guess you're just bitching like always.
DarDar - kill weapons mod
Heard that before. You might be right with this one. WM isn't top priority anyway.
falcon - development of their servers
That's what people do. They develop stuff. Oh wait, do you mean beta binaries of soldat servers? Yes, there are/were few of them but any decent and active scripter could get his hands on them. Which is not your case ofc. Afaik you might have them(no idea why). So what is this about? Poor english and lack of brain I'd say.
Btw: Falcon is the guy who created SC3. Don't forget that.
Someone - create lags if there are many shots on the map
I'd beat the shit out of that Someone guy. Someone gimme his address. Oh wait. What?
and .. Shoozza is old hacker :_)  (wEeEeDy :*)
Who's not? Many scripters/devs did shady stuff. I guess it was even profitable back in the day unlike being a dev. Don't act like a good guy, Dominik.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 04:06:56 am by Moroes »

Offline daaw

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 12:26:30 pm »
I still dont understand ..
..can someone explain to me like to a normal human being..
why exactly you can't open source it ..if you are not against it?

Offline Slasher

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 07:40:07 pm »
Yo, Shoozza.
   The game is slowly dying and we do not have much time, hoping to improve the graphics will take a lot of time, in my opinion, the graphics are not bad.
   A good team needs a climate and all the members understand each other, so I see that the situation is not very good, try recruiting new members to help. Because until now you have not sought other people to help you?
   The time is passing and the soldat is late!       
                     
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 07:48:14 pm by Slasher »
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Offline Slasher

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 07:54:57 pm »
Too much, you spoiled this game with updates to update fewer and fewer players. After the last mod weapons broke me completely lost interest to play.
You destroyed the barrett and the way you move around the map, you adjusted a lot of things FOR OWN SERVERS!

Exhunter - kill move about
Shoozza - add new system movement and kill barrett
DarDar - kill weapons mod
falcon - development of their servers
Someone - create lags if there are many shots on the map

and .. Shoozza is old hacker :_)  (wEeEeDy :*)
Do not talk nonsense and try to help in some way,idiot
Make love, not war.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 06:25:00 am »
Do not talk nonsense and try to help in some way,idiot

Its funny that for all those years, Dominik is only person who actually tried to make something, he made, and most important, update, lots of scripts in this forum.
For all those years of making fun of him, he still here, updating his work, suggesting ideas... and people still would rather make fun of his English instead of looking at it in wider perspective. Picking just one or two post and focusing on them.

For example. What you did Slasher? Really?
What most of people did?

More than half of people here did something long time ago, and beside that nothing, rest of it, is never ending stream of useless talking. They have on this forum respect not for what they did overall, but because of time they spend here, others know them, and that is only thing that give them better place in ranking "who is right".
All people who had ideas, knowledge, and examples of all that where buried under all that discussion of forum veterans that never stop talking.... they talk, and talk, and talk, and nothing is made. And when someone show up with something real, already made or ideas that could be implemented where mocked and annoyed...


So yeah, before you open your mouth Slasher its good to look at something in wider perspective, because you can realize that some people and some things, are not like you though.

Offline helloer

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2017, 10:33:08 am »
Dear Shoozza, it looks like you didn't even read our petition so i'll just copy paste there some parts of it.

Quote
0) easier for cheater developers to create and update their cheats (olivers anti cheat would help here)
Firstly, there were cheats, there are and there will be just like in every game. Currently there are public cheats for Soldat updated with each version so nothing would really change to the state of having cheats. For the part ?easier?, it's not really true. Of course hackers will have an insight of a code and it will lead them to find something useful for them but what can they find and how can they use it? Making cheats in Soldat is currently easy as pie and every beginner with basic understanding of hacking and searching for information skills is able to make working cheats and ruin fun for others. After publishing the code hackers won't be able to make hacks in any easier way because the way they are doing it now is the easiest one and if you make a cheat you have to follow some steps which you can't skip by looking into the code because they are simply necessary. So, the only valuable discoveries for them will be bugs and exploits. And these are able to be fixed. For example teleport hack can be removed from the game by changing the netcode into more modern one and making player's position calculated on the server side.

With open source we can still use closed source anticheat.

Quote
1) like jrgp said, it doesn't exactly mean we will get a lot of activity, most of soldats open sourced projects are inactive and don't get pull requests or commits (also only a hand full of people work on them), you cannot compare it with very popular open source projects, you might win the lottery but considering that is isn't everyone's favorite programming language we are already on a disadvantage

Firstly, everyone will be able to make changes to the source code at any time without giving any promises or commitments. Also people won't be blocked nor discouraged by a poor management already existing in current developer team. In addition to that, there is a large amount of programmers in some of the communities. Some of them even stated they would contribute if Soldat was open source. Therefore, it will be much easier to help for anyone without being tied to constant expectations of making frequent updates. It will lead to having people who don't have much time but still want to support Soldat and will make updates from time to time when they have a free moment. Furthermore, nothing will change for the people who want to contribute frequently... Maybe except for the growing number of them because it will be easier to join the team.

Open code won't stop Shoozza or anyone else from contributing! Open source can only bring higher number of manpower.

Quote
2) divided community due to forks, is a risk atm, there was a lot of drama the past 2 years in the dev team so it isn't unlikely to occur (i'd like to avoid more drama as it slows development down and can kill motivation), after x forks then in the end everyone looses motivation, you have x different soldat's and nobody knows where to pick up and so it dies

Indeed, there will be many clones but it is also certain that their maintainers will want to have them compatible with the main repository because otherwise, people will play on the best existing version and forget about other worse alternatives. And that means, players will be able to join any server from any client. There will be main repository because at the best there will be the official one but this solution needs a maintainer and if we don't have one then one of the best clones will take over the role of the upstream just like it was in other games (like in etlegacy or ioquake3). In conclusion there won't be a problem with the community being fragmented and the clones will be helpful because they will share their ideas and the upstream version of the game will only benefit from them.

Lets be real, our community is to small to have even one actively maintained fork and the vast majority will stick to the original repository.

Quote
3) you have to take other people into account and if they would still help, monsteri has other plans and open sourcing would mean we 100% don't get his graphics revamp
There are more people willing to work on an open source soldat than closed source.
Quote
4) we can open source at any time in the future some time after the graphics revamp maybe

Let's go back to 2010 and this thread: https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=39129.5

Please make soldat open source or get it a nice dev team don't sell it to other people so that I have more issues to get stuff in it...

Was that you or some other Shoozza? We don't have nice dev team, everyone is inactive there.

Quote
5) the game needs a someone who merges the requests and moves it forward that isn't different from the current situation and
I have publicly expressed my willing to accept you as maintainer of open soldat project and to finish together 1.8 instead of 1.7.2 for steam release. But i got rejected:
Quote
I was burned hard by the whole thing and i hope you understand that i cannot just work with helloer now

Quote
6) I just got soldat after nothing happened for a long time, i'd like to actually do something to restore the trust of the community in the dev team even if it is only me
Massive code refactoring, linux & mac port, better way of storing assets, cvars and a lot of other smaller features is not nothing and we can do a lot more with open code than 1.7.2 with a handful of bugfixes and developed by ONE developer.

TOGETHER as community we can finish what we planned for 1.8 and release it on steam by December.

Yesterday MM declared that he would make a final decision about our proposal by the end of the week.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2017, 01:12:37 pm »
Helloer makes a lot of good points. Especially his response to #0 - the "easier to develop cheats" argument just doesn't matter much at this point.

Instead of making Soldat 100% free I think "premium" version should remain too (or re-implemented in the future). King Arthur's Gold used a similar system which seemed to work well against cheaters and griefers - there was a free-to-play version of the game, and a paid version with an account system. From what I remember, server owners could set their servers to "unprotected" (which would allow anyone in), to "protected" (which would only allow players with no bans), to "gold" servers (which would only allow premium players). Something similar might work with Soldat, especially with more account-bound and/or paid features being added (like frequently requested stat-tracking, achievements, unlockable cosmetics, etc.) to discourage players from getting their account banned, and giving server owners protection against fresh "expendable" accounts.

I think as a long-term goal this might work better than maintaining an anti-cheat that adds no extra features for honest players.

Release what we have right now for free as the "lite" version, while the extra goodies implemented in the future could be made part of the new "premium".
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 01:16:08 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline Mokkun

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Re: Petition to MM: Make Soldat Open Source
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2017, 02:31:31 pm »
Helloer makes a lot of good points. Especially his response to #0 - the "easier to develop cheats" argument just doesn't matter much at this point.

Instead of making Soldat 100% free I think "premium" version should remain too (or re-implemented in the future). King Arthur's Gold used a similar system which seemed to work well against cheaters and griefers - there was a free-to-play version of the game, and a paid version with an account system. From what I remember, server owners could set their servers to "unprotected" (which would allow anyone in), to "protected" (which would only allow players with no bans), to "gold" servers (which would only allow premium players). Something similar might work with Soldat, especially with more account-bound and/or paid features being added (like frequently requested stat-tracking, achievements, unlockable cosmetics, etc.) to discourage players from getting their account banned, and giving server owners protection against fresh "expendable" accounts.

I think as a long-term goal this might work better than maintaining an anti-cheat that adds no extra features for honest players.

Release what we have right now for free as the "lite" version, while the extra goodies implemented in the future could be made part of the new "premium".

We could use VAC for people that are on steam but the problem would be for people that don't use steam, but yeah I agree, if we want to prevent cheating, some account system would make it easier