Minimi overpowered

[O.R.I.O.N.]

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.
right now the boost its getting is making it replace ak. Hell now most weapon is better than ak. there are only few nowdays that are proefficient at it.

You need to play more realistic matches; the AK's the second most popular auto in realistic next to the AUG.

[STM1993]

You need to play more realistic matches; the AK's the second most popular auto in realistic next to the AUG.

Not Minimi? I always thought it was the Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40-watt range.

[8th_account]

STM, excur something: Explain to me how the Ak would be underpowered. It's the 2nd most used auto and primary, with 50% more kills than the 3rd most used auto - mp5.

[Fluffy]

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.

So you're saying that it should be hard to use while being made inefficient even when used well?

Oh, and I did get the "point of your points". It's about how you suck at the game and are angry and frustrated because you just can't kill some guys.

[STM1993]

STM, excur something: Explain to me how the Ak would be underpowered. It's the 2nd most used auto and primary, with 50% more kills than the 3rd most used auto - mp5.

Right... i made a big mistake there o.O

EDIT: Read my next post.

[excruciator]

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.

So you're saying that it should be hard to use while being made inefficient even when used well?

Oh, and I did get the "point of your points". It's about how you suck at the game and are angry and frustrated because you just can't kill some guys.

for j00r info, I everytime I walk into a pub, my K:D ratio is always 3:1, with occasional 2:1s. I know pub is the best measurement for skill, but just think before you say things. it is really simple you know, if your wiring don't work I suggest that you rewire. Or just trash the whole thing and get a new one, like what your parents should've done a long long time ago.
 

STM, excur something: Explain to me how the Ak would be underpowered. It's the 2nd most used auto and primary, with 50% more kills than the 3rd most used auto - mp5.

lower DPS, for one. + It lost its nishe since the increase in fire rate and decrease in dmg.
People are using ak not because its a great gun, is because they already know it and they don't want to abbandon it. If you are a efficiency player you would've left it long time ago.

Date Posted: May 14, 2008, 12:00:19 pm

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.
right now the boost its getting is making it replace ak. Hell now most weapon is better than ak. there are only few nowdays that are proefficient at it.

You need to play more realistic matches; the AK's the second most popular auto in realistic next to the AUG.

people choose ak because of control(I think I've mensioned it before). and Control restricts potencial.
not because it is an amazing gun or anything.

[STM1993]

Ahh I remember why I said that earlier in a hurry even though I might have been wrong.

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=26975.0

Minimi needs 8 shots to kill, AK needs 9, and its quite close considering the other autos take 9 and minigun is at least 12.

Minimi's DPS > AK's
Minimi's DPC > AK's
Minimi's Bullet Speed > AK's

Now the only factor is reload and accuracy. Minimi is less accurate and has a longer reload. But in 1.5 the Minimi is getting a bit more accurate (-1 movement acc), and according to the latest beta ini you tested, the damage +1 is also there (which I am strongly against). Now it seems that the AK MAY be overshadowed by the Minimi in future, because its accuracy has been improved and its reload is shortened a bit, and that damge +1 is a big problem. The reload is still more than 1 second (around 80 ticks) longer than the AK though. And Minimi and the AK are way too similar.

I don't understand how people may say that the Minimi is underpowered in this case, considering a pair of AK and Minimi users of the same skill level and knowing how to use their weapons. (Minimi is slightly harder to use)

[8th_account]

Minimi needs 8 shots to kill, AK needs 9, and its quite close considering the other autos take 9 and minigun is at least 12.

Good points. But just to make it clear, Ak has higher damage per bullet than minimi. According to my calc, Ak needs 6,1 (150k/103/240) shots to kill, while minimi needs 6,5 (150k/85/270) shots.

[Poop]

I don't know what DPS, DPC and all these other acronyms you guys are throwing out means, however I do know that minime is not overpowered and those statistics posted earlier by skoskav prove this fact.

In SCTFL (Those stats are from SCTFL), clans do whatever it takes to win a match, end conversation there. Most clanplayers play an extreme amount of time per day compared to more casual players and figure out the best and worst weapons extremely quickly. If using the minime would help them win the match more than using the steyr, ak, or all other weapons above minime other than minigun, then they would be using the minime, and not all those other weapons. Its as simple as that. And the way to measure overpoweredness is to see which weapons help a player or clan win the match more than they should. Minime is not one of those weapons yet.

Now here are the subjective bullsh*t some of you guys are posting in terms of why minime is used so little...

1. People are not "Used" to minime and they don't want to abandon AK (The weapon they know). I don't have access to the stats with me right now so but ill just say it directly, almost every weapon in the game has varied a huge amount version to version. If people were more inclined to "Stay with the weapons they know", then Steyr (Which was not used much at all in version 1.3.1), would not have 75% more kills than the next used weapon (AK which was most used in 1.3.1). The simple fact of the matter is in the clan-scene and in clanwars, people will quickly figure out what allows them to win easier and switch over to it. Not saying everyone makes this switch, but if minime was as overpowered as you seem to  believe it is, it would be used way more than it is now.

2. Bias towards lameness? Im surprised skoskav even used this reason because when it comes to winning, 80% of players don't care and just want the victory. This is especially apparent when you go back to the spray days (When spray was considered extroadinarily lame). Spray increased at a rapid pace because it was the best tactic to victory, and slowly even those that thought it was lame initially switched over to it. People saying tactic A is lame wont stop clan B who wants to win SCTFL from using tactic A if it helps them win.

3. Bullets to kill, bullets to weaken, all this stuff is relative. If it was possible to measure how effective a 5 reload, 5 ammo, 5 damage, 5 movement accuracy would be relative to another weapon with 10 reload, 7 ammo, 6 damage, and 7 movement accuracy, then we would have a perfect weapon balance already. The only objective measure I have seen posted in this thread are the weapon usage statistics in SCTFL.

To conclude, minime is not overpowered. However I do not agree with a lower reload to minime because that is what makes the weapon unique. A damage boost or some other boost would be enough, but I would rather not see it becoming another AK with lower reload.

[Extacide]

Er, I'm not saying the Minimi is being used and abused by everyone. I've just been noticing ALOT more clan players using them and the damage its dealing was tremendous. Atleast, alot more people using it than they did before, and I'm noticing the trickle effect of other players picking it up as well in response. Even my friends are picking it up after getting owned by one, lol. You could say they were very good players because it takes a good player to use it to such extents, but it seems like minimi vs. most guns, both with good aim the minimi wins.

I say wait 6 months and see how it turns out. Its not used enough just yet to jump to any positive conclusions.

[Fluffy]

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.

So you're saying that it should be hard to use while being made inefficient even when used well?

Oh, and I did get the "point of your points". It's about how you suck at the game and are angry and frustrated because you just can't kill some guys.

for j00r info, I everytime I walk into a pub, my K:D ratio is always 3:1, with occasional 2:1s.

Oh well, totally ignoring what I said and bragging about your KD ratio instead is probably what I expected you to say.

People are using ak not because its a great gun, is because they already know it and they don't want to abbandon it.

Baseless speculation.

[Poop]

In 6 months the new version will probably be out. But anyways, I have also noticed more people using minime recently, but its still not anywhere close to Steyr and AK, and I still believe its hovering well below the average.

We will have this seasons SCTFL stats in a month or so, so lets see if the numbers have changed at that point.

[STM1993]

I don't know what DPS, DPC and all these other acronyms you guys are throwing out means, however I do know that minime is not overpowered and those statistics posted earlier by skoskav prove this fact.

DPS = Damage Per Second
DPC = Damage Per Clip

In SCTFL (Those stats are from SCTFL), clans do whatever it takes to win a match, end conversation there. Most clanplayers play an extreme amount of time per day compared to more casual players and figure out the best and worst weapons extremely quickly. If using the minime would help them win the match more than using the steyr, ak, or all other weapons above minime other than minigun, then they would be using the minime, and not all those other weapons. Its as simple as that. And the way to measure overpoweredness is to see which weapons help a player or clan win the match more than they should. Minime is not one of those weapons yet.

I agree with the statement where you said about selecting which is the best or worst weapon to use in a scenario (given that they are equally experienced in every weapon) and that one way to measure overpoweredness, though calculations may help for a more in-depth look.

Now here are the subjective bullsh*t some of you guys are posting in terms of why minime is used so little...

1. People are not "Used" to minime and they don't want to abandon AK (The weapon they know). I don't have access to the stats with me right now so but ill just say it directly, almost every weapon in the game has varied a huge amount version to version. If people were more inclined to "Stay with the weapons they know", then Steyr (Which was not used much at all in version 1.3.1), would not have 75% more kills than the next used weapon (AK which was most used in 1.3.1). The simple fact of the matter is in the clan-scene and in clanwars, people will quickly figure out what allows them to win easier and switch over to it. Not saying everyone makes this switch, but if minime was as overpowered as you seem to  believe it is, it would be used way more than it is now.

Actually, it is partially true that some people would rather stick to a weapon for whatever reason, not because they are not used to the gun probably, but rather the fact that they know full-well that they can't use that gun effectively and therefore be at the losing end, that's why some people still stick to the AK even though the Minimi may be the more effective gun in a match.

3. Bullets to kill, bullets to weaken, all this stuff is relative. If it was possible to measure how effective a 5 reload, 5 ammo, 5 damage, 5 movement accuracy would be relative to another weapon with 10 reload, 7 ammo, 6 damage, and 7 movement accuracy, then we would have a perfect weapon balance already. The only objective measure I have seen posted in this thread are the weapon usage statistics in SCTFL.

No, it is not as easy as just using purely calculations, but it can help give a more in-depth look about the weapon.

To conclude, minime is not overpowered. However I do not agree with a lower reload to minime because that is what makes the weapon unique. A damage boost or some other boost would be enough, but I would rather not see it becoming another AK with lower reload.

I think an accuracy boost is more than enough, and if the reload really must be decreased, I'm okay as long as its within 20 ticks (it's still more than 1 second slower than AK, 80 ticks). As for damage, I'm strongly against any changes, whether positive or negative.

I just find it a little weird that Minimi is not very popular even though it's actually pretty strong (not overpowered). I guess that it's just the reload. I hope to see more Minimi-users.

[tehsnipah]

8th_Account and STM are giving us really good points and infos about both Minimi and Ak. I tested out both Minimi and AK. Both are almost similar. It takes about 6~8 shots to normally kill a player with AK, meanwhile Minimi takes 6~7 shots normally to kill a player. (I swear, I tested it)

They got a similar power, but different pros and cons.


Ammo= Minimi>Ak
Reloading Time= Ak>Minimi
DPS and DPC are already said by 8th_Account.
Shooting Rate= Minimi>Ak
Accuracy= Ak>Minimi   (This actually depends on players. Minimi has a HUGE recoil, so after 3~4 shots, the bink will rise.)

So literally, I think it only depends on how the players are good at using them.

[excruciator]

Minimi falls into the category of guns that are very high in potencial but its just hard to use.

So you're saying that it should be hard to use while being made inefficient even when used well?

Oh, and I did get the "point of your points". It's about how you suck at the game and are angry and frustrated because you just can't kill some guys.

for j00r info, I everytime I walk into a pub, my K:D ratio is always 3:1, with occasional 2:1s.

Oh well, totally ignoring what Isaid and bragging about your KD ratio instead is probably what I expected you to say.

People are using ak not because its a great gun, is because they already know it and they don't want to abbandon it.

Baseless speculation.

if by ignore you mean answering the question then yes, I ignored you completely. If you expect me to say "fluffy you are completely right about me" then you are a fool.

honestly I cannot think any other reason why people would choose ak over minimi. But it is much easier to learn a weapon and stick to it then learn a new weapon all over again.

And I'm pretty sure that I am right about control. Ak offers much more control than any other auto, thats why RS people tend to like it. Its predictable, not because its extremely damaging.

Er, I'm not saying the Minimi is being used and abused by everyone. I've just been noticing ALOT more clan players using them and the damage its dealing was tremendous. Atleast, alot more people using it than they did before, and I'm noticing the trickle effect of other players picking it up as well in response. Even my friends are picking it up after getting owned by one, lol. You could say they were very good players because it takes a good player to use it to such extents, but it seems like minimi vs. most guns, both with good aim the minimi wins.

I say wait 6 months and see how it turns out. Its not used enough just yet to jump to any positive conclusions.

very true, maybe the aug would be less popular if someone pwned with ak more, causing other people to imitate. (monkey see monkey do)

POOP. if what you say is true(that people changed a lot and people will abbandon the old one for a better one,)why dont we see a giant shift toward semi, or ruger in the previous version? Or even in this one?

clearly not all SCTFLer's seek extreme power, but control also. AND thats why auto and especially why ak is more used, just because it offers more control.

[8th_account]

POOP. if what you say is true(that people changed a lot and people will abbandon the old one for a better one,)why dont we see a giant shift toward semi, or ruger in the previous version? Or even in this one?

There weren't any great shifts towards semis the latest versions because they didn't get buffed enough to suddenly be more lethal and reliable than the autos.

clearly not all SCTFLer's seek extreme power, but control also. AND thats why auto and especially why ak is more used, just because it offers more control.

Obvious? Who stated otherwise? If a weapon is good it will get used a lot.

[Blazing Tiger]

A competent Minimi user will normally win the day against an AK--if you don't take moveacc into account it does everything the AK can and more.

The main advantage an AK user has against other autos or Semis is that their low firing rate and large clip allows them to outlast and then kill the other player while they are reloading, since you still have ammo left. The control also allows you to fire and kill from ranges that put HK and AUG at a disadvantage.

A Minimi, on the other hand, enjoys the same benefits the AK has--just more of it. The balance is it's terrible moveacc. There may be some places on the map a Minimi will be a big disadvantage at because of it, while the AK can still hold it's own. It's not overpowered--it's just more specialized than an AK.

[STM1993]

A competent Minimi user will normally win the day against an AK--if you don't take moveacc into account it does everything the AK can and more.

The main advantage an AK user has against other autos or Semis is that their low firing rate and large clip allows them to outlast and then kill the other player while they are reloading, since you still have ammo left. The control also allows you to fire and kill from ranges that put HK and AUG at a disadvantage.

A Minimi, on the other hand, enjoys the same benefits the AK has--just more of it. The balance is it's terrible moveacc. There may be some places on the map a Minimi will be a big disadvantage at because of it, while the AK can still hold it's own. It's not overpowered--it's just more specialized than an AK.

Not to mention the Minimi's reload, which is currently 100 ticks slower than the AK.

And, Aug is built for almost any range with its bullet speed and firing rate as well as accuracy, kinda like what we call the "ultimate auto". It can match practically any gun as a result, so in fact, even at ranges that suit the AK, the Aug can still fight back (unless the Aug-user so happens to be under a hill while the AK-user is far away and shooting from above and making use of the bullet arc). MP5 is built for close range, rushing and floating ; more of a speed weapon which also depends heavily on height advantage.

AK and Minimi are built towards mid-long range. The only difference is that, the AK is better because of its accuracy and higher damage per shot, so it is better for a gunner who wants to make sure every one of his shot counts and survive long fights best compared to most other guns and autos. Its reload is about 2.5 seconds, which is short enough for the AK considering its 40 ammo clip and slow firing rate which prevents the gun from losing ammo too quickly.

Minimi on the other hand, has the firing rate and longer ammo clip to make up for its reduced accuracy and lower damage per shot. The Minimi can last long fights, but only to a certain limit. After finishing all of its 50 ammo, a Minimi-user is as vulnerable as any reloading Barrett (not after shooting a barrett ; backflips rolls etc will slow down reload but it does not slow down the Barrett's recovery of its firing rate), LAW, Minigun or M79-user, and has to reload for approximately 3.8 seconds or rely on a secondary to save his life.

[excruciator]

POOP. if what you say is true(that people changed a lot and people will abbandon the old one for a better one,)why dont we see a giant shift toward semi, or ruger in the previous version? Or even in this one?

There weren't any great shifts towards semis the latest versions because they didn't get buffed enough to suddenly be more lethal and reliable than the autos.

you are sure, this version's ruger has one of the highest DPS. You can win with that a lot for sure. yet I don't see many running around with the ruger.

[8th_account]

http://nopaste.biz/37000

Ruger's the 3rd or 4th most popular primary, though it still doesn't beat them autos.