Remove unplayed maps

[Dusty]

Couldn't post this in the default map discussion because I don't seem to have the privileges.

What's the deal with hanging on to maps that have been mostly abandoned for ages already? Some maps are only played as forced tiebreakers in gathers, such as Crucifix and Lanubya, others are picked by a single clan (Raspberry in SCTFL 22, 99 of 100 rounds by the same clan, Mayapan 26/27...) I'm of course talking about CTF only, I don't know about the other modes and the DM map pool is pretty solid with some exceptions such as Tropiccave, Factory and Veoto.

I think I've seen someone of the dev team saying "we won't remove maps", why exactly? Removing some of the official maps would make room for new maps and slightly reduce the work of the great graphical overhaul.

Some maps I think should step aside:
Maya
Mayapan
Ruins
Raspberry
Lanubya

An original map that should be brought back: Snakebite
Ignoring the vote is, in my honest opinion, a pure fuck you towards the competitive scene and along with how the mapping crew handled the whole lets-modify-these-maps-and-not-really-listen-to-anyone-problem a huge reason for why the comp people rarely even try to suggest anything in here - nothing really happens and the few dev comments have been very roundabout and not very specific.

[zakath]

The CTF pool is not exclusively chosen for the competitive community and if the competitive community wished to play other maps its nothing stopping them really. There are also no fixed amount of slots for maps in the default map pool.
We don't remove maps because while some maps may not be everyone's cup of tea and as you said if ppl don't want to play a particular map in sctfl they don't so no harm there but removing them would hurt it for the ones that does play it.
Same thing applies to the DM pool you don't like Factory, Tropiccave and Veoto but there are ppl who do.
About Snakebite, while current Snakebite isn't a huge success it enjoys the same kind of popularity as the former version and we aren't going back with that one it might be changed further in the future but nothing is decided atm.

[homerofgods]

I think we should carefully go through map for map and see what improvements can be done, to both visuals and gameplay.
I think theese are the right threads for the default maps where you can state your opinion and help to remake:
ctf_Maya
ctf_Mayapan
ctf_Ruins
ctf_Raspberry
ctf_Lanubya

[Dusty]

If there's no fixed amount of maps then of course it's another thing. However out of the maps I mentioned, I've seen only Ruins and Lanubya played on publics and even so, only a couple of times so it's not about the competitive side only. It has never really worked that well neither on publics nor comp and mostly seems like a forced attempt at bringing something new to the game from the dev's side. Quote from SuoW in Crucifix's topic:

The thing I've never understand is why it's made impossible to remove failed default maps in practice.

About Snakebite, while current Snakebite isn't a huge success it enjoys the same kind of popularity as the former version and we aren't going back with that one it might be changed further in the future but nothing is decided atm.

I of course have only SCTFL's stats but based on them and the topics on SCTFL, the modifications that were made weren't very successful. Yet again this feels like the mapping team can't admit it didn't work out as well as intended. The whole process should be community driven, not formed only of personal opinions of (in this case biased) developers. I'm not personally accusing anybody but I've thought the map team has worked rather poorly and selfishly since the remakes were added.

The CTF pool is not exclusively chosen for the competitive community and if the competitive community wished to play other maps its nothing stopping them really.

For reasons beyond me, it seems to be overly difficult for the competitive community to use modified maps. On the other hand, I don't see the public community using maps outside of the official pool very problematic

I think we should carefully go through map for map and see what improvements can be done, to both visuals and gameplay.

Some maps just don't work well enough compared to others, why waste time on trying to make them better? Lanubya has always been an icky map to play and there's already been one remake that changed nothing. Why not just concentrate on new maps instead?

[zakath]

About Snakebite, while current Snakebite isn't a huge success it enjoys the same kind of popularity as the former version and we aren't going back with that one it might be changed further in the future but nothing is decided atm.

I of course have only SCTFL's stats but based on them and the topics on SCTFL, the modifications that were made weren't very successful. Yet again this feels like the mapping team can't admit it didn't work out as well as intended. The whole process should be community driven, not formed only of personal opinions of (in this case biased) developers. I'm not personally accusing anybody but I've thought the map team has worked rather poorly and selfishly since the remakes were added.

Well they were succesful in such a way that it made it different from Kampf(push mindlessly forward kind of gameplay that it shared with snakebite). It didn't gain Guardian like popularity but it maintained roughly the same amount of plays as before.

[Dusty]

Well they were succesful in such a way that it made it different from Kampf(push mindlessly forward kind of gameplay that it shared with snakebite). It didn't gain Guardian like popularity but it maintained roughly the same amount of plays as before.

But was there a need for such change? Snakebite used to be the #1 raw power push to win type of map, now it's pretty much only map like that is Kampf which is imo worse in every aspect than the original Snakebite. There are many other maps that share similar style of play, especially the default two top one low -routes. Why change a working, somewhat popular map instead of eg. adding a new map with the new aspects? The problem here is that the remake wasn't really needed, nobody asked for it, the original Snakebite was in the middle tier in popularity and after the eventualy it was forced into the game regardless of the uproar.

Also the popularity of Snakebite has dropped after the remake, both percent of matches played and comparing to other maps.
SCTFL 16: 19th most popular map of total of 27
SCTFL 17: 18/27
SCTFL 18: 15/27
SCTFL 19: 24/29 - first season with the remake
SCTFL 20: 23/30
SCTFL 22: 24/32
From 55%-70% to 75%-83% in percentage of maps that were played more often. Not the biggest change but undeniably still there.

[zakath]

Well they were succesful in such a way that it made it different from Kampf(push mindlessly forward kind of gameplay that it shared with snakebite). It didn't gain Guardian like popularity but it maintained roughly the same amount of plays as before.

But was there a need for such change? Snakebite used to be the #1 raw power push to win type of map, now it's pretty much only map like that is Kampf which is imo worse in every aspect than the original Snakebite. There are many other maps that share similar style of play, especially the default two top one low -routes. Why change a working, somewhat popular map instead of eg. adding a new map with the new aspects? The problem here is that the remake wasn't really needed, nobody asked for it, the original Snakebite was in the middle tier in popularity and after the eventualy it was forced into the game regardless of the uproar.

Also the popularity of Snakebite has dropped after the remake, both percent of matches played and comparing to other maps.
SCTFL 16: 19th most popular map of total of 27
SCTFL 17: 18/27
SCTFL 18: 15/27
SCTFL 19: 24/29 - first season with the remake
SCTFL 20: 23/30
SCTFL 22: 24/32
From 55%-70% to 75%-83% in percentage of maps that were played more often. Not the biggest change but undeniably still there.

Now that metric isn't valid as it will be skewed because of more maps in the map pool now. However it resides around 0-2 % of the plays which it has always been doing. So there is certainly no downward trend.

[darDar]

ctf_Maya was one of the favorite maps of the ppl. who used to play on my public server back in time.
ctf_Lanubya is a pretty cool map as well and I dont understand why it is not much played in the competive scene.

I am fine with all of those maps.

[14th_account]

Ehh... Removing maps is always a touchy subject. I remember several years ago when lots of DM maps disappeared from the default pool. Some of those I thought were awesome, and it really bummed me out. I also really loved ctf_Crashed and ctf_Factory.

I'm sure there are a number of people who would fume if we removed e.g. ctf_Maya (me included).

I'd rather want flawed maps to be remade and improved. And at least one new map should be added every few months.

[Dusty]

Now that metric isn't valid as it will be skewed because of more maps in the map pool now.

How come? From SCTFL 18 to 19 the position dropped nine steps yet only two maps were added. Also new maps can't really explain the drop from 2.4% to 0.2-0.4% in total rounds of played.

Regardless of the stats, even if it is about as popular as the original, the poll still exists and the general opinion preferred the original version. Why exactly are you so persistent in keeping the remake?

Ehh... Removing maps is always a touchy subject. I remember several years ago when lots of DM maps disappeared from the default pool. Some of those I thought were awesome, and it really bummed me out. I also really loved ctf_Crashed and ctf_Factory.

I'm sure there are a number of people who would fume if we removed e.g. ctf_Maya (me included).

I'd rather want flawed maps to be remade and improved. And at least one new map should be added every few months.

Of course there will always be a group of people who like a certain map. Crashed and I think Factory too were in Soldat Gather's custom map pool and never were very popular. Remaking and improving is of course great idea, but sometimes I believe you just have to move on. Adding new maps while still keeping the old bad maps because of a tiny minority wanting to keep them ends up in a point where the map list is a huge mess and there will be more and more work to keep it maintained.

[zakath]

Now that metric isn't valid as it will be skewed because of more maps in the map pool now.

How come? From SCTFL 18 to 19 the position dropped nine steps yet only two maps were added. Also new maps can't really explain the drop from 2.4% to 0.2-0.4% in total rounds of played.

That stat can easily be skewed espically on the lower end of the distribution. Say that sctfl X the bottom 5 maps each have around 1 % and map ctf_Y is last with say 50 plays and then sctfl X+1 the bottom 5 arent played at all except for ctf_Y that is played once so it gets ranked as 1 of the bottom 5 it hasnt exactly gained in popularity.
Now maps popularity fluctate a bit between seasons and evidently snakebite bounced back. So you cant take out any significance from just one season.

[Dusty]

So be it then, however my second point about the poll still stands.

[zakath]

So be it then, however my second point about the poll still stands.

Ahh yes polls..... just look how well they work here bunch of ppl voteing with just 1 post(which is the post in that thread). No way those could be skewed either.......right?

[Dusty]

So be it then, however my second point about the poll still stands.

Ahh yes polls..... just look how well they work here bunch of ppl voteing with just 1 post(which is the post in that thread). No way those could be skewed either.......right?

The difference here is that whereas somebody can just recruit the whole HnS community to turn the boat around here, SCTFL is a community of comp oriented players and I doubt other branches really care about its polls. I do believe most votes are genuine. The topic has some discussion, but most of it is spread around different map threads of that era this one being specific to Snakebite.

[ginn]

Some maps I think should step aside:
Maya
Mayapan
Ruins
Raspberry
Lanubya

That's quite biased of you... mayapan is an ok map, but requires some tactics.
These are more important to have removed:
Kampf, snakebite, b2b, laos, ruins, equinox, crucifix, lanubya, run, maya.

Edit: on the other hand, none of them really needs to be removed. SCTFL should have it's own map pool, it really doesn't make sense that it doesn't have one.

[AdamD]

b2b, snakebite and laos still see competitive play, and laos sees a lot of play in gathers.

[ginn]

b2b is played because it's pretty much a free win/tie map... it's a broken map.

[Dusty]

on the other hand, none of them really needs to be removed. SCTFL should have it's own map pool, it really doesn't make sense that it doesn't have one.

This this this I so agree but sadly there seems to be a long way to go, one custom map per season isn't exactly having own pool of maps.

[Tekidek]

Some maps I think should step aside:
Maya
Mayapan
Ruins
Raspberry
Lanubya

LOL, I don't play competitive CTF, but for Pub (5v5 / 6v6) all those maps you cited are some of the best. Every time it comes on pub everybody goes "YAY!".

For me the bad maps are ctf_X, ctf_B2b, and those ice maps I can't remember the name who have a division you can throw the flag through.

I think if the community wants more competitive maps, they should add more competitive maps, not remove the classic, older ones. At least improve them, without really taking their flavor.

[Adam]

Some maps I think should step aside:
Maya
Mayapan
Ruins
Raspberry
Lanubya

LOL, I don't play competitive CTF, but for Pub (5v5 / 6v6) all those maps you cited are some of the best. Every time it comes on pub everybody goes "YAY!".

For me the bad maps are ctf_X, ctf_B2b, and those ice maps I can't remember the name who have a division you can throw the flag through.

I think if the community wants more competitive maps, they should add more competitive maps, not remove the classic, older ones. At least improve them, without really taking their flavor.

What server are you playing on...