Author Topic: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.  (Read 11854 times)

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Offline Monsteri

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Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« on: September 08, 2016, 02:00:36 pm »
Soldat is long overdue for a culling of the weak when it comes to the amount of default maps. This is a list of DM/TDM/RM maps that I propose we remove for 1.8. All the default maps are going to receive a beauty makeover before then, and there's no way in hell we're doing that to a 100+ maps, so majority of them need to go. The list is preliminary and highly up for debate. Suggestions welcome.

When removing (or perhaps replacing) maps, there's a few key things we're looking at:

1) The diversity of the whole map pool by size. There should be a few small maps, many medium maps and a few large maps.
2) Layout duplicates or near duplicates.
3) Intuitive layout.
4) ..And by extension, removing stupid gimmicky maps.
5) An intriguing theme or a fun layout, preferably both.
6) Preserving the absolute classics.
7) 10-15 maps per mode in total.

The whole Deathmatch/Team Deathmatch/Rambomatch map pool currently:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aero
Airpirates
Arena
Arena2
Arena3
Bigfalls
Blox
Bridge
Bunker
Cambodia
CrackedBoot
Daybreak
DesertWind
Factory
Flashback
HH
Island2k5
Jungle
Krab
Lagrange
Leaf
MrSnowMan
Ratcave
Rok
RR
Shau
Tropiccave
Unlim
Veoto

The maps to be removed:
-------------------------

1) Airpirates
The layout is confusing and doesn't create good gameplay. The map is driven solely by theme, which is not even fitting for Soldat. Bad for new players and boring for experienced players.

2) Arena 3
A boring layout that does create some bloody mayhem, but ultimately other maps of similar size are better executed. (Such as Arena2)

3) Bridge
An uninteresting map with bad movement, theme fails to deliver. Too similar to Tropiccave.

4) CrackedBoot
A poor man's copy of many similar maps, bad movement and bad spacing of action. Daybreak and Bigfalls fulfill the role better.

5) DesertWind
Innovative layout but also frustrating, quite a lot of effectively dead space for a small map.

6) Factory
I'm not entirely sure of this one's removal, but the gameplay feels quite limited and clunky, effectively coming down to who spawns where.

7) Flashback
A less interesting version of Bigfalls.

8) HH
Not terrible, but spaces the players out too much without offering much complexity in 1v1 engagement.

9) Krab
Boring gameplay, too many little tunnels leading practically nowhere.

10) MrSnowMan
Lots of room for horizontal gunfights with a few hotspots and decent movement, but other maps already fill the category.

11) Rok
Forgettable map and ugly layout.

12) Shau
80% of the map is dead space and engagements are always very one-dimensional.

13) Unlim
Not bad, but Veoto is better.

14) Jungle
Not bad either, just nothing special.

Final amount of maps = 15
A few could be removed still.

Maps electable for removal but can be good with tweaks:
-------------------------------------------------------

14) Aero
High-up spawns absolutely need to be removed and verticality limited to 3 screen heights at most. The sides are too empty for higher player counts, but gameplay flows well enough in the middle.

15) Cambodia
A fitting Viet Cong theme, but too much of the map is dead space and there is no good reason to go down to the tunnels. Perhaps remove or tighten outer areas, make the tunnels interconnect more for faster movement, and move a few spawns and most health kits down there.

16) Leaf
Really good layout with 3 somewhat equal parts connecting in the middle, good pacing of gameplay with enough complexity to keep it fresh. Mainly need to rework the leaf shapes and good to go for graphics redo.

17) Tropiccave
Feels really cramped and clunky with too limited engaging distance, mostly due to the long, bullet-colliding pillar. Removing it is simple, but may fuck with TDM balance of the map. This is close to Bridge in layout, fwiw, and replaces it.

That's it for the DM/+ maps. If you found this list offensive, it's time to rev up those keyboards!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:04:26 pm by Monsteri »
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Offline Meteorisch

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 02:11:33 pm »
I'd remove bunker, i mean that map is just an open space ? holy shit good theme right there
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 03:02:58 pm »
It's a good map for newbs, same as Lagrange. True, quite simple, but that's the point. It's not immediatly apparent to us as most have been playing for 8+ years, but the movement in this game is one of the hardest to learn.
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 04:26:21 pm »
I was expecting a much less aggreeable list, but I have to say - very good picks. Just a few comments:

Unlim - Not sure if it's worth removing. It's one of the few DM maps that doesn't look terrible, and has a decent layout and nice flow. I'd keep it at least for now, until we find something much better.

Factory - I vote for removal. It's a very limiting map in terms of movement freedom and weapon choices, and not very noob-friendly. It also uses a lot of custom sceneries that aren't present in any other maps.

MrSnowman - I'm tempted to keep it because we barely have any winter-themed maps. Ultimately though, the layout is still poor and not worth keeping. I'd rather see a completely overhauled remake of this at some point in the future.

Bunker - IMO it should be removed too. I don't see how it's noob-friendly other than being a large open space that you can jet over instead of learning to move through terrain. It's not really teaching new players anything. There's probably much better alternatives out there.

Island2k5 - I vote for removing that one too, due to a number of pointless dead-ends, somewhat uninteresting layout and poor visuals.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 04:30:34 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 05:36:10 pm »
I basically agree with what u posted. Personally I hate Cambodia and the fact it already had half of the tunnels removed, and they are still the issue clearly shows how well thought the layout was xD
Id substitute Bunker with Loner's remake if we want a map with a bunker in a middle. It looks way better and on top of that it allows some action and coverage in other sections of the map. (https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44242.0).

MrSnowman is also a bit iffy for me. Pretty much what Loner said. I remember this map being quite fun on RamboMode back in the days ^.- On the other hand I don't know if we have enough will to remake the visuals :d Definitely one of the hardest choices in here!

Offline jrgp

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2016, 01:05:48 am »
Idk guys my three favorite DM maps are Island2k5, MrSnowman, and Bunker.

I agree with killing Arena 3 and Flashback and some of the others listed in OP's post. Also I hate how Factory has like no jets and is hard to move around in.

Maybe also bring back the original Airpirates by Evil-Ville and replace xtender's flashy remake with it.
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2016, 06:34:31 am »
One thing with Bunker is also that it's good for small amounts of players, between 2-6. We could remove it but something has to take its place, as it stands there aren't too many maps with a simple ground-level based layout.

Island2k5 I don't have much experience on tbh, but at least playing with bots the action felt nicely spaced.

The original Airpirates looks so much better and actually has a sense of graphical style, but I'm still not sure about the layout. It's difficult to move around in and nothing too exciting usually happens in the map. Bots also don't seem to fare well with the terrain.

So in conclusion, Airpirates should stay gone, Bunker needs a replacement (anyone?), MrSnowMan stays gone, and Island2k5 is still up for debate.
As for Unlim, the gameplay does flow well and movement in it is decently easy. Its layout makes a graphics redo challenging however, because at least I can't really think of any theme that fits it. Some other map should then also be removed in its place.
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Offline Name

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 07:18:27 am »
This is not funny.

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 10:32:07 am »
My favourite DM maps are Flashback and DesertWind. Whilst the latter is not that popular amongst most players, I have found Flashback to be one of the most played DM maps ever since.
However, I am well aware that some people will definitely be disappointed for having their favourite maps removed, which will be inevitable, thus it'd be fair enough for me to see something nice gone along with many bullshit maps.
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2016, 12:35:26 pm »
My favourite DM maps are Flashback and DesertWind. Whilst the latter is not that popular amongst most players, I have found Flashback to be one of the most played DM maps ever since.
However, I am well aware that some people will definitely be disappointed for having their favourite maps removed, which will be inevitable, thus it'd be fair enough for me to see something nice gone along with many bullshit maps.
~just my 2 cts
How do you like Bigfalls? I found them rather similar in overall layout, but Flashback is just a lot more simplified. Bigfalls/Flashback are those kind of big DM maps that are good for a high player count, and in this regard I found Bigfalls to be better as it has more geometry, i.e. more crannies for action to disperse to, and more nooks for safe reloading inbetween kill streaks. It allows for a higher player count while not devolving into a chaotic spawnkill fest.
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Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2016, 02:10:06 am »
Soldat is long overdue for a culling of the weak when it comes to the amount of default maps.

And I thought the amount of the default DM maps are painfully small...

All the default maps are going to receive a beauty makeover before then, and there's no way in hell we're doing that to a 100+ maps

Don't do it then.   :|

... Well, there is no need to redo every map if it's about cosmetic—some map benefits (if it does at all) from it a more than other. Some of the more abstract maps, like Arena or Unlim for example, can be left alone or just minor changes and focus more on something that adding more bling would be highly beneficial, like Daybreak or Jungle.

....

Srsly I can moan about this for hours... But Name already sum it up nicely :

This is not funny.
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Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2016, 06:08:45 am »
It's not like you can't still just download the maps and play like you used to. The game needs to be representable to new players, and that means cutting out the excess crap.
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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 08:39:14 am »
The idea behind the removal of the maps is to sort it out, polish the default pool and make it appear as a complete game with a decent mappack. I fully support the vesatility of the maps we have, but I don't agree that we should keep ugly/boring maps. I hope servers admins agree with this politics and with the lack of the defaults, they will provide fresh maps and test their playablilty using their playerbase. I believe the whole mapping team will not stand indifferent and we will happily add new ones to the .zip C:
Also, please notice these changes are aimed strictly at the maps that are not popular in the current state and, as I believe, their (low) popularity comes only from the fact it's the default map. If u really like a given map, as an admin of your beloved server to upload it to the server. Even if he doesn't agree to add it to the maplist cycle, you should still be able to vote it through with enough people willing to play "the old classic"

Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2016, 08:51:29 am »
It's not like you can't still just download the maps and play like you used to.

I got 2 main complaint about this; first one is an undeniable truth about life, the second is a technical one :

1:— Laziness is the nature of people, espiacially people like us lot... And the old adage 'Convenience is King' has been proven time and time again to be correct. Why making thing a chore when its inclusion do not hamper the game in anyway...?  If anything, the HD textures that make the game ~5x bigger to download for no good reason (I have my fire-proof suit ready, so go ahead and flame me for this!  :P) is, arguably, what drives new people away.

2:— There's more problem than just having to download the map; stuff will break—different map version in different version of the game will need to match exactly to the game server, which may be varied. It also add yet another layer of clusterfuck to how the game plays demo, of which it already got so many point of failure that rendered said demo unplayable.


The game needs to be representable to new players, and that means cutting out the excess crap.

People don't even let these new player use sniper line in servers cuz 'it's for stupid noobz who can't aim', and will annoy everyone of them to dead whenever chance they get cuz 'it's fun trolling n00bz trolololol!!11!' ... And you blame maps as 'excess crap' that drives new people away!?

Not to mention that the game does not even work properly even for seemingly basic, simple stuff— there's a fuck ton of these it will be such an embarrassing list if I were to make one  :-[—here's one; you can't use ALT+F2 to switch sniper line on/off once you join a server that disable it, even when play offline, until you restart the game... srs, wtf?  [retard]

---------

but I don't agree that we should keep ugly/boring maps.

What is your definition of a "boring map"?

 I get the ugly part, but the boring part, so far, seem like just an excuse for "I don't like it" and not very convincing...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 09:15:36 am by BKT »
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2016, 11:29:30 am »
I doubt the bigger filesize is driving anyone away unless they live in Africa. It's still only 100MB, which is miniscule, and in fact due to us removing a lot of the maps we can even cut down the size further as some textures and sceneries become unnecessary. There will be no issues in version control either, unless you try to play old versions of the new default maps for some reason.

I never said anything about the excess amount of maps driving people away, it's the unpolished state of the game that does. To polish the game we need to focus our efforts on the very best of maps. As for the community, there's not much we can do about that. Buying official servers and recruiting decent moderation teams would help the reception newcomers have, but that's very off-topic for now. It's also a fallacious statement to presume that just because we are removing outdated and duplicate maps, no other issues will ever be looked at. In fact, many of the small issues stem from little and largely unnecessary features. What is the point of Alt+F2 turning sniper line on? You should do that in the game options.

Cutting things will be necessary to create a tight package that looks attractive and plays well.
Soldat is not getting new players if we keep stumbling around in legacy hell, and all too soon we'll be forced to do gathers to play the game with other people.
Staying in the past means certain death for the game. It's high time to move on.
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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2016, 12:21:45 pm »
By "boring map" i meant duplicated layouts that don't provide anything interesting and don't have anything to offer other than what the rest of the mappack already offers. By no doubt you can fing Cobra and Snakebite interesting, but i don't see the reson to keep another X maps that provide nearly the same layout in the mappack. Thats why we have custom maplists on servers, where u can choose additional maps that fit your gameplay. I think we should aim on keeping the default maplist as tight as possible and as various as it can me. Then we can start adding ones judging by the community's opinions, to keep the maps up to date and if needed, recycle the older, not so popular anymore, maps C:

Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2016, 01:07:47 pm »
we are removing outdated and duplicate maps

Looking at your list in the first post, none of the map you propose should be remove were, in fact, "outdated and/or duplicate" of any other map. It just maps that are old and shares some similarity to some extent (highly debateable).

But seriously, Unlim is bad cuz Veoto is better? ... Wait, wat!? ??? ...  Come on, most of your argument for the removal of those map make no sense to me at all, and I'm not even trying to be a dick about it and being sincere.  Using your logic, a fuckload of CTF map can easily be remove also, since most of them are, indeed, "outdated and/or duplicate" of each other—much, much more than DM maps you said were this and that and stuff... 

What is the point of Alt+F2 turning sniper line on? You should do that in the game options.




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What the hell is this even mean ...?  :-\

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Ok then.  :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 01:38:16 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

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Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2016, 04:15:29 pm »
Bunker is a legend of a map... so many hours of using the secret passage to roof and shooting Barrett shots through the roof... :D And tbh I have always had fun on it on DM servers also Rok is perfect don't see why it needs to be removed.

I would only remove Airpirates, this shitty one should have been removed ages ago!

But really why remove any? Server admins run whatever maps they want anyways & to argue we should remove a map because it doesn't help new players is just silly... none of them do we don't have any tutorial in the game at all.
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Offline CCalp

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2016, 08:46:50 am »
How do you like Bigfalls? I found them rather similar in overall layout, but Flashback is just a lot more simplified. Bigfalls/Flashback are those kind of big DM maps that are good for a high player count [...]
I find Bigfalls to be more suitable for public DM with 5+ players, in fact, I think it's one of the best maps for public DM out there. However, if it comes to competitive or even 1on1, Flashback has always been one of my most played maps (and at least back then when I was active in ESL 1on1 league, many people chose it).

Offline Seth Gecko

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 02:59:27 pm »
But really why remove any? Server admins run whatever maps they want anyways & to argue we should remove a map because it doesn't help new players is just silly... none of them do we don't have any tutorial in the game at all.

I like the idea of having a "Quick Play" feature which lets you join an official DM/CTF server without having to open the server list.

Experienced players could use "Custom" to choose a server. And in an ideal world, there would be an integrated "Gather" system as third option.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2016, 11:43:49 am »
out of the 14 maps you named to be removed i loved 9 and here is the problem; different strokes for different folks. who are you or anyone to say which maps should stay and which should go?

besides arena2 and other cramped as hell maps i really can't name any that feel "too similar" - every map you named has plenty of differences in both the layouts and strategies.

also not to mention a TON of the maps you named are real classics and removing them kinda feels like a big fuck you to the vets.

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2016, 12:28:35 pm »
First of all, we at new soldat mapping team very much appreciate the support that all players that have played the game for so long have given Soldat. Without you guys, your love of the game and how you spread the word around you, things would clearly not be the same.

Devs are currently making some pretty neat changes to the game. I do have to agree that I, as a veteran player, am feeling increasingly unimportant to them. But it is just a feature patch. Perhaps they do have plans to introduce significant, permanent content updates for veteran players to enjoy, and it'll just take a little more time than first update because Soldat is super great and important and unique and it's the only thing anybody wants right now, right? In order to interest newbies we need those changes

Today's and upcoming big changes will not have as many visible effects to you specifically as it would have for a brand new player, that knows very little about the game. The new direction system should help you get a clearer and more useful top-tight UI and a map-pool, but also give you better learning process. We aim the changes at new players while preserving the absolute classics with a bit of necessary tweaks that wouldn't affect the gameplay. The list that you saw in this post is not a definite change. We talked things over and based our decisions on statistics. You'll be able to see them in the upcoming release. I can assure you that Soldat will not lose its old flow. Each map from the map-pool will be well-themed and receive a top notch remake that will not hurt the historical part of the play. Stay tuned for the names.

While, as a veteran player, I'm only vaguely interested in new map improvements, I don't think it would make a lot of sense to leave these improvements sitting on the table if they're 80% complete already and will be 100% complete by the 1.8 big release.

As you noted, it is mainly targeted at new players, those that need it the most. We want their learning experience to be better so that they, too, can become veteran players of Soldat one day! Learning to play a brand new game, and movements can be a daunting and hard task.

We want more people to be able to walk this path we walked and this is why we implemented the new maps system with tutorials on the way, to create a route that new players can walk and feel rewarded along the way. Let us do what's the best for the game because we do believe that Soldat can be saved! We can still have thousands of players every day, but if we change nothing, nothing will change. It's good to have maps that play out in different ways. And I think we could do with a little more variation than the scene currently has. I think a lot of people are being overly conservative for no good reason. Again, thanks for your support!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 05:25:17 pm by Petterkowski »


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Offline duz

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2016, 09:20:32 am »
I'm talking about this for ages.
Here's a topic with some suggestions: https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44223

For me, doesn't matter which map gonna be removed, almost every TM/DM map is a piece of shit in terms of design and the spawns scheme.
I'm gonna post a little feedback based on almost 10 players playing TM as my main gamemode and a lot of DM championships including ESLs etc.

You can remove or not, doesn't matter, but these maps already have a very well established theme and this could be availed:
MrSnowman - The only ice map available, the snowman is a good thing to work with.
Jungle -  Vietnam (or something like that) theme and the helicopter...
Bridge - Refers instantly to the London bridge.

Just one more thing...
Avoid a common mistake: Please, don't choose/make maps that can't be used on all these gamemodes. Here's an example: Aero. The TM gameplay on this map is a mess, looks like a random DM with teams. You basicaly can't organize your team, they're playing solo even in a team and this is not a good thing for a team based mode.

And please, don't consider jrgp's opinions. ::)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 09:22:32 am by duz »
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Offline machina

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2016, 08:01:31 am »
Hey, I actually liked Airpirates. Maybe instead of removing it entirely, we could fix it a bit. For example that stupid machine gun. Make it useful by lowering the tower and giving one greater angle so it could fire at grass to its right hand side?

Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2016, 10:58:17 am »
We have chosen the 15 DM maps that will be included by default. More details in the future.
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Offline homerofgods

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2016, 12:11:30 pm »
We have chosen the 15 DM maps that will be included by default. More details in the future.
Great! If we continue to debate nothing gets done! You have my support

Offline Seth Gecko

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2016, 03:28:19 pm »
Hey, I actually liked Airpirates. Maybe instead of removing it entirely, we could fix it a bit.

Maybe the phrasing was not optimal when Monsteri spoke of removal.
There is no intention of removing a map completely since it is each server owner's responsibility to select a map pool.

The mapping team is looking for a minimal set of popular maps which are going to receive a makeover (aka "default/official map pool").

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2016, 06:21:21 am »
Oh wow. This post makes me nauseous. Sweaty palms. Why? PLEASE WHY?

How about instead of shitting on the work of others and unilaterally taking the decision to remove what is essntially the last 14 years of my gaming life, you create your own viable solution to the problem and make new maps which the community enjoy. If you don't have the creativity to produce content which rivals the status quo then what makes you think you are in any position to make the decision of removing maps on "our behalf".

Maybe there is a reason that people still play "ugly, boring" maps. Maybe the community's opinion differs from that of your own! Maybe you should be respectful of the fact that there are still Soldiers supporting this game, and have done for many years. Maybe it's bullsh!t like this which alienates the dedicated playerbase in turn driving down activity. Maybe you're being fatuous and counterproductive in your endeavours. Though, I do appreciate the efforts being made by the development team it seems somewhat misguided.

Look at what happened to Chernobyl and ctf_Crashed_Bridge. I happened to like both of those map, as did many. Where are they now? Yes the onus is upon server owners to create a map list that's reflective of their particular communities interests, but how many admins/hosts do you think are going to take the time to rummage through the internet to find maps which aren't included in the default download so that they may continue to host these treasured maps. How many gems will be lost in the process??? And how do you think it will affect the map rotation across all servers by limiting choices? Welcome to Soldat 2016!! Identical map lists across the board.

Leaving the maps in the zip does no damage to the game whatsoever. As mentioned, it is the server hosts who select which maps are in rotation and that would usually be reflective of the communty it serves. Take for example, a server which I admin'd for a few years, (Which is set for a return soon for those who are wondering, the K!ngs shall reign again!), we had a relatively small map rotation list, but added many maps to the server so that people are able to vote their favourite maps. We would add maps by request, even CS maps which I loathe, in order to serve the community.

I KNOW! Why don't we just remove jets? Bear with me here.. Jets provide greater mobility to Soldiers which stands to prolong gameplay by avoiding being killed, thus extending the time Soldiers have to look at these "ugly, boring" maps. And WTF this is 2016 and we're here promoting gun violence through the medium of what is ultimately a childs play thing! Can't we just have water pistols and run around wearing hula skirts and skinny jeans, because Soldiers are so 2002. While we're being progressive, when do you plan on adding some banging One Direction tunes to the music file list so as to be inclusive to all the young Soldiers you hope to recruit by removing "ugly, boring" maps. Because let's face it no-one presses F6 anymore, and nobody even likes Necromancide, right? RIGHT? - Yes. We can all make fatuous suggestions.

Yes, you are insolent. Apology not accepted.

You Got Served!

P.S. Don't you dare touch Tropiccave or Bridge. Rok = forgettable/ugly? Flashback less interesting blah blah blah? DesertWind frustrating? Bridge uninteresting? Arena3 boring? DO YOU EVEN SOLDAT, BRO???

Your reasoning seems biased and fallacious.

Offline Seth Gecko

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2016, 08:16:59 am »
...
...
Yes the onus is upon server owners to create a map list that's reflective of their particular communities interests, but how many admins/hosts do you think are going to take the time to rummage through the internet to find maps which aren't included in the default download so that they may continue to host these treasured maps. How many gems will be lost in the process???
...
...

Instead of taking your time to write this wall of hate, you could have spent a moment thinking about a good solution for your problem.

For example, you could have created an archive containing all current DM maps which are not going to be considered "default" in the future, and offered this archive as download in a fitting section of this forum.
I assume, somebody hosting a DM server would take the time to download and extract this archive if he wants these maps to be played.

I like your English skills though, nice use of vocabulary.  :)

Offline machina

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2016, 10:28:24 am »
For example, you could have created an archive containing all current DM maps which are not going to be considered "default" in the future, and offered this archive as download in a fitting section of this forum.
jrgp's web would do I bet i.e. http://tms.jrgp.org

Still, in my opinion, maps once added to Soldat should remain there forever. Not just for diversity, particular players' sentiment but also as gratitude for map makers those spent a lot of time to create them. Seriously, there's always been a team to decide whether map should be included or not (except from vanilla perhaps).

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2016, 12:15:18 pm »
Hello, Seth.

I appreciate your advice, however, I would not have pointed out the shortcomings of others had I not been in a position to pass judgement myself. I'm currently hoarding 424 Soldat maps. As you rightly say I can just upload them to a server job done, right? Wrong.

The issue I have is not solely a personal one but one for the entire communty. One of the arguments put forth by people in favour of this stance is that there is a need for greater variety, but they say this without realising that they are countering their own argument. There would in fact be less variety in the map pool as a direct result of this development. Now how does that translate in practice? More servers with less maps! Which will only lead to further stagnation of the game. Hurraaaa???

Should I or others be confined to one server in order to play the maps we like just because some guy who happens to be on the development team deems them ugly and boring? They're pretending to be giving us something when the reality is they are taking away from us.

I do appreciate the time and effort the dev team offer and although I don't personally think that the maps need HD remakes I understand that some people feel there is a need for change over time and I will respect that if it is a majority opinion, irrespective of my strongly held conservative beliefs. What I fail to grasp is why they would remove maps that they have no intention of developing (fortunately), in spite of there being many who have supported the game for a very long time primarily because of this content. To reduce the zip by a couple of MB? I see it as akin to book burning. It's an absolute nonsense.

Furthermore, it should not be upon the end user to have to safeguard core components of a product they paid for. Will I get a refund if the content I supported is removed? Many of the textures and sceneries are used for mulitple maps meaning that if these files are updated to be in HD it would generate conflicts with the "ugly boring" maps. So I am now expected to not only compile an archive of said maps but also test and resolve ID conflicts for each individual file? Sod that for a game of Soldiers.

It is not my intention to come across as hateful. On the contrary. I am passionate about Soldat and I expected people would appreciate that having invested so much time and a bit of money on this game, that it might give rise to a few heated words when such drastic changes are proposed. I do appologise to anyone who has taken personal offence to my comments and hope that those people realise that this very topic is offensive to me.

A good solution to my problem would be if there was a compromise where the development team agreed to leave intact the maps which aren't going to be updated.

You seem like a pleasant person. Thank you for engaging me in a civil manner.

Offline Hubiq

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2016, 03:43:58 pm »
Quote
Aero
Airpirates
Arena
Arena2
Arena3
Bigfalls
Blox
Bridge
Bunker
Cambodia
CrackedBoot
Daybreak
DesertWind
Factory
Flashback
HH
Island2k5
Jungle
Krab
Lagrange
Leaf
MrSnowMan
Ratcave
Rok
RR
Shau
Tropiccave
Unlim
Veoto

The maps to be removed:

This is a joke right? If not, I have one question. You're sick or just stupid?

Offline machina

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2016, 05:27:32 pm »
Quote
Aero
Airpirates
Arena
Arena2
Arena3
Bigfalls
Blox
Bridge
Bunker
Cambodia
CrackedBoot
Daybreak
DesertWind
Factory
Flashback
HH
Island2k5
Jungle
Krab
Lagrange
Leaf
MrSnowMan
Ratcave
Rok
RR
Shau
Tropiccave
Unlim
Veoto

The maps to be removed:

This is a joke right? If not, I have one question. You're sick or just stupid?
The quoted text in your post makes me actually super confused about that what you're relating to.

If you were asking if this is a list of maps those are currently available in Soldat then it's not a joke.

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2016, 08:45:40 am »
Official maps? Such a travesty.

As for the insults, there were none. Insolent is an accurate description of your current position.

You said yourself in a previous post on this thread that the original maps conflict with the HD (HugelyDisappointing) re-skins. So don't lie to me. So yes I will be expected to do a lot of legwork in order to play content which has been the standard for well over a decade. Cool story, bro.

What you fail to understand is that the mainstay of Soldat's community are people who are highly dedicated, and will play for hours upon hours, most days a week. Just because you're likely some poser who sets up the odd 30 minute private game once every other week doesn't mean there aren't people who need a wide selection of maps so that the game doesn't become monotonous. I played twenty-odd DM maps yersterday alone.

No, you're not going to remove all 29 default DM maps. But you've suggested to remove up to 18 of them. Simply because you're not dedicated enough re-skin the "excess" maps. I dread to think what bounty you will squander when you start culling CTF maps.

Just because a plan is 80% in completion isn't to say that it should go ahead regardless. Hitler almost had his way but that doesn't mean he should have finished what he started because he was already a percentage complete. Nazi's were also known for book burning. & mass depopulation... The pattern emerges!

It would appear that the time has come for England to once again help Poland safeguard her assests.

Offline duz

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2016, 10:01:50 am »
L.O.L.
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2016, 10:48:55 am »
No, you're not going to remove all 29 default DM maps. But you've suggested to remove up to 18 of them. Simply because you're not dedicated enough re-skin the "excess" maps. I dread to think what bounty you will squander when you start culling CTF maps.
Dedicated? You know what? Pay me 2900€+ wages monthly, and I'll gladly re-skin all the maps, every single one.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline Fale

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2016, 11:56:32 am »
Just leave everything as it is, people have and want to play their favourite maps. Stop constantly destroying this beautiful game with pointless updates/features or focus on fixing bugs instead. Soldat is what it is and we like it that way!

Offline darDar

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2016, 12:09:06 pm »
Just leave everything as it is, people have and want to play their favourite maps. Stop constantly destroying this beautiful game with pointless updates/features or focus on fixing bugs instead. Soldat is what it is and we like it that way!
And they'll be still able to do so after the update. Just that non-official maps will no longer be updated and supported and are nothing we want to sell players as an official part of Soldat.

"Leave everything as it is" - Yeah, well that's exactly why Soldat isn't as good as it could be.
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Offline You Got Served!

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2016, 02:40:33 pm »
Soldat is worse now than it ever was. In almost every aspect. "Leave everything as it is" is pretty extreem, but I'd go one further and say revert to a previous version. (I hear some already do.)

Nobody kills Kakarot while I'm around! Destiny has reserved that pleasure for me.

Fale is a well respected, dedicated player. Type of guy who will wait around in empty servers for people to join, and then still be there hours after many have been and gone. You know, the type of guy you really should want to keep on board. He helps keep this game alive. There are increasinly fewer people of this type. A little appeasment wouldn't go amiss.

I don't want to take a sour tone here but it strikes me odd that every time a disgruntled Soldier expresses their thoughts they are immediately shot down.

Seriously, it's a good job FF isn't on. Us guys are on your team. It's small wonder so many have gone awol.

You could actually suggest to make some small concessions or something idk. Maybe add a prefix to the "boring ugly" maps & not update them. I know.. Next map: boring_ugly_Arena

You can't be so out of touch to actually think the GFX hurt the game THAT much. My 8 year old son enjoys 8bit Mario. 16bit Zelda. Many people are into retro things these days. And you're seriously not dumb enough to deny a game its legacy? Don't mutilate Soldat on its death bed because of a minority opinion please. Really, these brighter colours aren't all that much to some people. :)

I can identify your reasoning, and let me tell you its madness. You hope to make this shiny new release which will wow the masses and make Soldat popular again so you can all dance around singing "We did it!". It won't happen like that. Promotion is key and without that you're doomed. - I have never seen Soldat promoted anywhere.

Monsteri: I would sooner pay you that amount NOT to update these maps.

Soldat is still a great game. Let's not plunder it's potential.

Offline Slasher

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2016, 02:51:23 pm »
Krab <3  :D
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Offline SneS

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2016, 02:09:18 am »
Quote
Arena3, DesertWind, Flashback, ROK, Unlim, Leaf, Tropiccave

LOL I cant believe it  ;D Really? These maps are the most popular on DM and 1v1. Everyone on public servers play these maps.

Quote
13) Unlim
Not bad, but Veoto is better.
Great comparison XD Almost like compare Iceage to Rok hahhaha
btw. Veoto is a shit. Who uses this map to DM or 1v1? No one. Unlim is played very often.

Quote
11) Rok
Forgettable map and ugly layout.
??!! xDD The most popular and the best map to play auto weapon is... "forgettable and ugly". I don't have questions.

Join once a month to 1v1 or deathmatch (not only ctf) and see what maps are played. This list of maps to be removed is a nonsense.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 02:22:06 am by SneS »

Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2016, 04:20:35 am »
Quote
Arena3, DesertWind, Flashback, ROK, Unlim, Leaf, Tropiccave

LOL I cant believe it  ;D Really? These maps are the most popular on DM and 1v1. Everyone on public servers play these maps.

Quote
13) Unlim
Not bad, but Veoto is better.
Great comparison XD Almost like compare Iceage to Rok hahhaha
btw. Veoto is a shit. Who uses this map to DM or 1v1? No one. Unlim is played very often.

Quote
11) Rok
Forgettable map and ugly layout.
??!! xDD The most popular and the best map to play auto weapon is... "forgettable and ugly". I don't have questions.

Join once a month to 1v1 or deathmatch (not only ctf) and see what maps are played. This list of maps to be removed is a nonsense.
The list in the OP is out of date. Also, we don't only consider current popularity in selecting the map pool - but we did include some goodies geared specificly for 1v1.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline gor

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2016, 02:48:10 pm »
The list in the OP is out of date. Also, we don't only consider current popularity in selecting the map pool - but we did include some goodies geared specificly for 1v1.

I dont understand the point of removing popular maps.
Who cares if the map is ugly if everyone is playing it in DM 0o

Rok is probably the most interesting map for mass DM matches

Offline duz

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2016, 02:55:24 pm »
You guys are so funny.

What's the meaning of popularity in 2016? 5 players?  :D ;D ;) ::)
Let them revamp the game and bring us new lovely maps/remakes. Then we can pick new favorite maps.

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Offline darDar

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2016, 09:26:38 am »
That's more of a game concept and mapteam workflow decision.
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Offline bat67

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2016, 03:08:46 am »
Hello.
I registered an account just to say: please do not touch those cool maps. Sad to read this news

Also this is funny
Quote
13) Unlim
Not bad, but Veoto is better.

14) Jungle
Not bad either, just nothing special.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 03:10:49 am by bat67 »

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2016, 03:46:03 am »
Solution: Keep the maps in the game, but not in the default drop-down list when playing offline; have a little "More maps..." button at the side or bottom of the drop-down list where a user can browse and select a map

That drop-down list in the offline play section is the only thing that affects new players; the rest is server admin's choice, and I guarantee you new players would not want to play a game where they have to wait in between rounds for "non-default" maps to download when playing online

So while the maps would remain "default maps", they would no longer be "easily-shown-by-default maps"
For the easily-shown-by-default maps, go ahead and remake as you see fit

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2016, 10:09:46 am »
All this map talk is good guys but really you should be signing up for SCTFL 29

www.sctfl.net

C'mon duz get some brazilians back in here :)
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Offline Slasher

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 11:14:17 am »
All this map talk is good guys but really you should be signing up for SCTFL 29

www.sctfl.net

C'mon duz get some brazilians back in here :)
I'm brazilian xD
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Offline Fryer

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2016, 05:54:10 am »
For what seems to be an inevitable change to Soldat's default map pool, I'm seeing an awful lot of "don't"s and close to no constructive criticism. I'm probably late to the party, but I'd want to provide some of that missing constructive criticism, since I find myself strongly disagreeing with some of the choices. I'm going to try to stay as objective as possible, looking at what variety in theme and gameplay the different maps bring instead of resorting to entirely subjective arguments like "it's not interesting" or "muh nostalgia D:".

Aero
-

Airpirates
Theme: It provides the unique theme of an island being entirely suspended in the air, and it even has a lighthouse!
Gameplay: It has open areas, tight tunnels, places to hide. The open area on the top is vulnerable from snipers sitting on the lighthouse, making owning that location an extra little minigame in itself. The hiding spots at the bottom center and bottom middle both come with a risk, offering not much in terms of fallback to those who venture there, except the pro-moves route of flying below the island, being careful to not run out of jets and fall to your death. The map offers a great variety of gameplay styles and options hard to find elsewhere.
Conclusion: One of the richest maps, both in terms of theme and gameplay. I've never once thought the layout was "confusing", removing it for that reason seems misguided. Despite all its elements, it retains a consistent theme and feel throughout the map, but with all sections having their own details and landmarks, making it easy to navigate and recognize where you are.
Keep? Absolutely.

Arena
Gameplay: Divided into 3 vertical sections, with passageways between them. Most games played on it seem to be a decision about whether to go to the middle or bottom section, based on where most players are. The bottom section provides an open area of easy aim-shoot gameplay, with escape routes in all directions, so that's where (new) players tend to bunch up. The top section provides almost nothing except being a hill, and all it adds is the annoyance of being randomly spawned there and having to find your way back to the action. The construct in the middle looks like something that was put together without any thought because "we need something here", and running around it doesn't offer any risks or challenges.
Conclusion: Weakly designed placeholder map with no theme, probably only popular because it's old and was on the top of the map list for a long time.
Keep? No.

Arena2 vs Arena3
Theme: Both maps have a similar theme with grass on the bottom and a dirt island on top. Arena2 has slightly better detailing work, while Arena3 expands on the theme by adding two structures (bunkers?) in the bottom section.
Gameplay: Both offer a clusterfuck close combat experience not seen in other maps. Arena3 manages to also include some open space and clearer structure, but it lacks some of the variety of Arena2. Arena2 on the other hand doesn't seem to know what it wants, and its dirt island is a mess of random polygons.
Conclusion: Arena3 could be fixed to address its weak points compared to Arena2. Add some sceneries and perhaps make the structures resemble something (bunkers?). Vary the structures (size, position) to give different gameplay options to the left and right side.
Keep? Arena3 (with modifications).

Bigfalls vs Flashback
Theme: Jungle-ish, Bigfalls does it better.
Gameplay: Flashback is all open spaces and a tunnel in the bottom right corner. Bigfalls has some extra well-placed islands providing cover from the mostly open design, and connects everything with a tunnel system in the middle.
Conclusion: Flashback looks like an old version of Bigfalls, inferior in every way.
Keep? Bigfalls.

Blox
Theme: As the name suggests.
Gameplay: In addition to the blox, which are a fun and unique concept to play around by themselves, it has several islands and structures placed around the main playing field where you can hide and take a break from the action. For the friendly neighborhood camper, it also provides a platform on the right side, where you can wait for the right moment and snipe an unsuspecting victim wandering through the blox, but with the risk of having no escape once you are spotted. The spawn point in the lower hanging structure can be an annoyance having to get out of.
Conclusion: Apart from the lower spawnpoint, the map provides a unique theme, and brings solid gameplay to an otherwise potentially gimmicky idea.
Keep? Yes.

Bridge
Gameplay: Two towers separate an open center from the more detailed sides. You can camp on the top of the towers, take the battle to the side areas, or quickly traverse the bottom center. The right side has a camping hole where you can be as annoying as you want, but it doesn't give you much. You can also pass over the top, but it's not good for long term hiding unless burning alive is what you do best.
Conclusion: Well balanced small map that has something for every playstyle. Comparing it to Tropiccave is absurd. Theme could use some clarification.
Keep? Yes.

Bunker
Theme: Open-ceiling battlefield with a bunker in the center.
Gameplay: It's a battle against parachuting soldiers raining from the sky and the few campers who choose to sit on the walls on either side. The only place to hide is in the bunker, which happens to be right in the center of all the action.
Conclusion: Only map that offers the raw open style of play for those who desire it, but keeps it sane by at least letting you have a bunker.
Keep? Probably.

Cambodia
Gameplay: Opens up towards the top, cavey towards the bottom. The caves are long and don't provide anything to play around, making them rarely visited except by those who aren't playing and want to avoid the action.
Conclusion: Personally one of my favorite maps, but removing the unused caves would make it just another generic map, with nothing to offer above what other maps already have.
Keep? No.

CrackedBoot
-

Daybreak
Gameplay: Enclosed middle section with an open area surrounding it. Both have corners and parts to navigate around.
Conclusion: Opposite of Krab, but smaller, and works better. Theme could use some clarification.
Keep? Probably.

DesertWind
Theme: Desert.
Conclusion: Only desert-themed map. Can't say much about the gameplay, I don't have any interesting points to make there.
Keep? Maybe.

Factory
Theme: Some form of factory environment, very blocky and constructed design.
Gameplay: The entire map is tunnels and corridors. Heaven of close combat chainsaw fighters.
Conclusion: Unique concept among a pool of maps mostly based in some nature setting. The cramped space makes it immediately recognizable and completes the end of the openness spectrum opposed by Bunker.
Keep: Probably.

HH
Gameplay: Several random areas linked together with long tunnels.
Conclusion: Running simulator. No theme.
Keep? No.

Island2k5
Theme: Tropical landscape and scenery.
Gameplay: There is a similar medium openness throughout the entire map, with two blobs to navigate around. A few corners and nooks are added in for good measure, and the top left side features a camping spot, similar to the one on Blox. Also the only map with a deadly body of water.
Conclusion: The unique theme and deadly water element, together with perfectly viable gameplay, make this map stand out just enough to be worth keeping around. The gameplay is pretty generic, but sometimes that's what you want, and what better map to represent it than one with its own unique theme?
Keep? Yes.

Jungle
Theme: Jungle. Someone mentioned that thing hanging from the top was a helicopter? I never knew, I kinda see it now, but it's not immediately obvious. What is that deadly pit doing in the jungle anyway? What does it represent?
Gameplay: Similar issue as in Arena, you'll go to the bottom or top section depending on where the action is. But in Jungle neither side seems to be the preferred place to be, so you're always chasing a moving crowd. The lower left tunnel is a place where you hide to be annoying and the spikes and other polygons poking at you are annoying. The deadly pit has a bridge over it, so it's never really a threat, just pointless scenery.
Conclusion: Lots of annoying elements and unrelated objects thrown together.
Keep? Probably not.

Krab
Theme: A night in the outskirts of the jungle?
Gameplay: It has an open area in the middle and a path around it. You can stay away from the open, peeking in once in a while to get a kill, or you can dominate it, occasionally going back to the path for cover.
Conclusion: The jungle theme seems overused, and Krab doesn't do a good job of making it work. It has its own gameplay concept, but many parts of the layout look rough and not well thought out.
Keep? Probably not.

Lagrange
Theme: Flat vegetated trench battlefield.
Gameplay: No jets, just running around shooting whatever is around you.
Conclusion: The iconic no-jets map, simple concept, no bullshit.
Keep? Yes.

Leaf
-

MrSnowman
Theme: Winter, snow, happy snowman, evergreens, ice slide.
Gameplay: Useless top section, nobody ever goes there. The bottom section is where things happen, it has a great layout with places to hide, places to take cover, and open escape routes on both sides. The middle section provides an open area for a different style of combat. The slide on the right side is fun, but doesn't do much for the gameplay.
Conclusion: It could be improved by removing the top area and maybe adding something to the middle area. Whatever it takes to keep the map in the map pool. Removing the only winter themed map would be a loss.
Keep? Yes (with modifications).

RatCave
Theme: Literally a rat cave.
Gameplay: Feels like a medium-sized Arena2. Lots of random dirt island polygons. Perhaps slightly more thought to adding a few open areas as well.
Conclusion: Doesn't add anything of worth to the map pool.
Keep? No.

Rok
Gameplay: Horizontally symmetric-ish, one of few such DM maps. Has a bottom and top section, but unlike Arena and Jungle, it somehow manages to keep both relatively balanced, without giving you the feel of always being in pursuit of the action. There's a bunch of open areas, but also some corners and islands to take cover behind.
Conclusion: It does the 2-section concept that other maps try to do, but better. It also provides an open-area experience, but less extremely so than Bunker. But it neeeds a theme.
Keep? Probably.

RR
Gameplay: Tiny map with a bunch of paths circling around.
Keep? No.

Shau
Theme: Mixed?
Gameplay: Huge open area in the center, more on the top right, lots of really long and pointless caves in the bottom left, and more open area above that. Has some deadly spikes in the center area.
Conclusion: Bunker already provides a good open area experience, this map tries, and fails.
Keep? No.

Tropiccave
-

Unlim
-

Veoto
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The maps without comments are ones that I don't have anything to say about. I can't remember them giving me any unique gameplay experiences or being visually pleasing, which is probably an indication that they don't provide any value to the map pool. If they were removed, I wouldn't even notice.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 06:15:48 am by Fryer »
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Offline duz

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2016, 07:37:21 pm »
Nice post Fryer. The fact is that doesn't matter which one gonna be removed or not, they shouldn't repeat the themes and structure. This is crucial to choose something here.

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