Author Topic: A new art direction for 1.8  (Read 24921 times)

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Offline Falcon`

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A new art direction for 1.8
« on: November 29, 2016, 12:57:42 pm »
For a long, long, time Soldat has been ugly – certainly since its creation, but as games have become more and more beautiful, we've stayed behind the times and the disparity has grown larger. When a new player opens up Soldat, not only is he met with a convoluted and confusing menu, but also graphics straight from 2000, which even for the time weren't good.

With 1.8 we are going to rectify that. Hand-painted sceneries and textures were the way to go, since limitations poised by the old engine rendered many conventional methods useless, and the art team (which consists of Monsteri) doesn't have enough time for 3D pre-renders. The goals of the new art direction are a cohesive style, much improved visuals, and improved readability of the game elements.

The style will be a mix of cartoony and painterly visuals with a bucketload of grit, but decently realistic shapes and objects. All colliding things – that is to say, polygons and colliders, will have thick outlines. Polygons will also be shaded invertly with light sources on the map in mind. A mix of cold and warm colors will be used for the foreground and background – where the foreground is warm, the background will be cold, and vice versa. The further background sceneries go, the colder they will be, which creates a nice sense of depth and increases readability. Colliding objects on the foreground will thus have more contrast and stand out from the rest.

During the downtime in communication we've been steadily growing our library of textures and sceneries, which is now starting to be big enough to be put into use. A lot is still work in progress and preliminary, and for the final results to match our vision, some additions to the game engine and PolyWorks will be necessary, but so far we've achieved some nice results with the tools already available. Check it out: ctf_dropdown!









Do post your thoughts and possible requests down below, we'd be happy to hear opinions, since this is a very big change coming up. We'll be making more updates in the coming weeks, and hopefully in a more regular manner than before.
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Offline darDar

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 01:07:29 pm »
Say big thanks to monsteri who made and makes this possible
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Offline gor

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 01:11:35 pm »
Looks very promising,cant wait to see the other maps :)

Offline DutchFlame

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 01:13:00 pm »
Hi,

Personally I have to agree with you that soldat is and has been ugly for too long, however is this related to the activity of players/new players? Secretly I'm hoping it does.

But damn... this looks super great and incredible.

I wish I could be of some help but, unfortunately I have zero knowledge about graphics and / or drawing abilities.
Not quite sure if I understood correctly as I'm hoping that polygon bugs are somehow getting ditched with this amazing time consuming work.
It's necessary for mappers/mapping that poly-works or any tool gets a proper fix/remake because currently it's disturbing any mapper out there since it's not fulfilling its job.

Never the less keep going and I look forward to the end result.

(DROPDOWN LOOKS EPIC SO FAR)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 01:19:54 pm by DutchFlame »

Offline Tarrega

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 01:15:29 pm »
It's genuinely awesome. Sincere thanks for all the work.

I have one small criticism: to me, the player models look as if they're *behind* the terrain, as if the ground they are walking on is much much closer to us than the player model itself. At times. Like shown below.

(Probably largely because the new lighting and whatnot aren't applied to player models? Perhaps this is okay and I'm just wrong, you'd know better. Just thought I'd share.)

Thanks again! It looks excellent.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 01:20:27 pm by Tarrega »

Offline kzya

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 01:21:00 pm »
add more features and rename it to soldat2 with advertising and it will be popular again

Offline Naughty Dog

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 01:58:23 pm »
This is epic stuff! Thanks for all the work!

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 02:27:07 pm »
1 man army. In monsteri we trust :) Good job right there, mate! Wait for 1.8 project to finish, guys, so you'll be able to see a big idea behind it once its done :] There's more of it coming! Let's make Soldat great again :D


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Offline Kenix

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 02:40:15 pm »
This is a massive step towards making this game look more attractive. If we ever hope to get this game to a bigger audience (Read: STEAM + advertisement) it needs to be visually appealing to a contemporary audience. Which, I'd say, is definitely the case here. So a tremendous good job to Monsteri for the redesign.

Offline Raged`

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 03:05:38 pm »
This looks pretty amazing.Gj whoever gave an effort on this

Offline nosejj

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 03:12:44 pm »
BRING IT ON, BOYS!

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 03:53:15 pm »
Map textures look amazing, and the guns look good enough.
I think the player gosteks needs to be reworked, because they don't fit in with the theme, and look out of place.

Maybe after these patches, one isn't required to use a mod to stand soldat.

A couple of other things, that are needed for soldat.
New gun SFX, the current ones are pretty bad (if I remember right, that they haven't been changed since forever).
And possibly most importantly... There's a need for match making. With it, an account system might be required.

Offline MrHamsTR

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 03:56:33 pm »
I don't know how to thank you people try to make this soldat better over and over years.
But the part I never supported was you damaged controls by removing prone cancel.
And so far there is no moving improve works or fixing polybugs.
We are a family in soldat for years I've been playing this since 0.9 beta or something like that old.
I am Hide and Seek player, this means moves and speed is more important and enjoable than fighting at all for me.
Maybe you could bring back old pronce cancel or healing huge polybugs on maps.

If there is something I can help, just tell me I will try to do everything I can.
But the visual is not everything that makes the game "Soldat"

I say again, those works were/are great works that deserve big hugs, thanks to all developers.
Is there anybody can write script?
Good, go and play soldat ^^

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 04:10:42 pm »
wow, if it looks this good I might even turn background sceneries back on ;)

good work!
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Offline Mayhem

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2016, 04:38:49 pm »
Amazing work, can't stop looking at it  ;D Is this possible to make a parallax background, so these mountains would moving much slower than things on the first plan? It could bring some good visual effects and make background more dynamic.

Offline Viral

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2016, 04:46:25 pm »
Mad props to Monsteri for everything he did/does. I can assure you it's not even a fraction of his work shown here, not to mention kicking our lazy asses can be just as exhausting :b Now that I know how Monsteri uses the base structure i can hopefully make it a bit easier for him in the upcoming maps.
I have to admit gostek looks out of place a bit, in comparison with the new outlines on sceneries and the overall style it appears rather bland - hopefully it will be fixed someday ^.-

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2016, 09:48:48 pm »
Props for the Monsterous (bad pun intended) amount of work on the graphics. One thing's for sure - this art style for maps and sceneries looks amazing and 2016-worthy. (Well, almost - just lacking parallax and a few other bells and whistles.) I feel bad for not contributing in any way, but my excuse is that I feel bad in general right now and taking a leave.

My one concern is how outlines are being used to separate colliders from background scenery - maybe it's just because screenshots are downsized, but I don't see a clear difference between colliders and non-colliders. There are outlines on some of them, but they're very faint. Some background sceneries seem to have the same tone and opacity that I'm not sure if they're really just background. And of course the file naming issues that I've expressed in the dev channel, but in the end we just agreed to disagree.

Still, fantastic work on the art style. Consider uploading the test version of the map & sceneries so we can see it in motion and full resolution.


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Offline Arrow/Freeman

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 02:20:20 am »
Fantastic job! Im really looking forward to seeing it in person.  :)

Offline Hubiq

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2016, 02:54:10 am »
Wow! It looks nice  :o Soldat needs a change like this.

BTW. Any details about 1.8 ? Release date (approximately) or something?

Offline Akinaro

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2016, 03:25:14 am »
So now you dont mind if map "have too much" sceneries?
Any idea when you release updated Polywork to play with it a bit(even without actual game to test it)?
As I see there is still no news in terms of graphic use in it, just one graphic file that need to be stretched to fit map(no multi-texturing)?

Also yeah, gostek look now like some sticker on screen, its too small and too "sharp" compared to map style. It would be good to check and see how game would look if gostek would be slightly bigger(2-5%) so it could contain ""more"" shading(and less contour). Just to see how it would work in game.

Offline Viral

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2016, 07:14:48 am »
I rate the screeshots, not the gameplay, so how can I make a statement on the sceneries impact? Probably some of the sceneries are not opaque enough, but the map isnt cluttered with them if u ask me. I hope we will test this soon and sort it out, whether or not it needs adjusting

Offline Falcon`

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2016, 07:39:14 am »
So now you dont mind if map "have too much" sceneries?
Any idea when you release updated Polywork to play with it a bit(even without actual game to test it)?
As I see there is still no news in terms of graphic use in it, just one graphic file that need to be stretched to fit map(no multi-texturing)?

Also yeah, gostek look now like some sticker on screen, its too small and too "sharp" compared to map style. It would be good to check and see how game would look if gostek would be slightly bigger(2-5%) so it could contain ""more"" shading(and less contour). Just to see how it would work in game.
Since you've made a couple of fair points in here:
  • As sad as it is, monsteri himself after a couple of playtests managed to crash his client with out of memory errors, most likely due to amount of sceneries. After further investigation it doesn't seem scenery or map related at all. We'll be trying to address this issue in 1.8.
  • Consider polyworks dead/obsolete. We've tried to find a developer capable and willing to code it for months now and without success. We'll try to develop a replacement tool instead, but this will take some time.
  • If the above two points get done, things like multi texturing or color filters or similar shouldn't be a problem to implement anymore.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 10:02:06 am by Falcon` »
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Offline maxiyou

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2016, 11:11:45 am »
Hi guys! First of all, I want to say that I really like this visual changes ;) Game need to be refreshed sometimes to keep players online. But my main message to you is different. I started playing this game in about 2009. I was 10 years old kid and this game was one of my 3-5 games to play every night for nearly 3-4 years. After this time, I was dissapointed of changes that touched Soldat - easier game, weak players were able to own a way better player with only barrett/M79/steyr... And now you see - 50-80 players online while there is 100 servers?! I remembered that soldat had 5++ pages of CTF servers, now there is only one... Back to the main idea - guys, you need to pay serius attention to ads nad promotion of your game. This product is addictive, still original and really playable. You need to post it on Steam at greenlight or something and I'm sure that you will have a chance to gain serious amount of players. Just stick to the freeware - paid Soldat will kill your product (of course leave optional payment for fireboots colour, stars on the left of the nicks etc.). I really want to see again Soldat in the way I have seen it at his golden age - 1000+ players online and tons of servers. I really wish you the best and I hope you will consider my opinion, love ya!

Offline Ussocom

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2016, 12:46:55 pm »
Dropdown looking sexy, gj :)

Offline homerofgods

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2016, 01:02:57 pm »
Wow! It looks nice  :o Soldat needs a change like this.

BTW. Any details about 1.8 ? Release date (approximately) or something?
There's no point in talking about a release date yet since nobody knows how much activity there will be, but I hope the new look will inspire more people to contribute
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 01:09:55 pm by homerofgods »

Offline RocketSoft84

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2016, 01:06:07 pm »
I think changing the art destroys an essential part of the original game, I played for the simple pixel graphics and beautiful UI.  Michal is still out there intentionally making pixel games met with even better success, I don't think downgrading the aesthetic is going to restore the player base to what it once was.

Offline Spasman

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 01:09:40 pm »
If you're going to put the art into high res, then you're going to heavily need to redo the gostek animations because high res art is going to reveal how "clumsy" the animations are to newer players and potentially turn them off from the game.

The trick to Soldat's """"ugly"""" art style was it was imaginative. MM didn't have to work hard on the animations because the player could  fill in the blanks as to what was happening because the low res would be beneficial and blend sprites together. With high resolution, I feel like its gonna look weird to see a player rotate his arms to throw a grenade, or oscillate his legs when walking forward.

I've only seen screenshots so correct me if you've already improved the animations, but I think if you're going to gut the art style, you're going to have to change the other aesthetics of the game as well.

I'm glad you are still updating, those are just my thoughts as a retired loyal player and a fellow developer who made his own game heavily inspired by Soldat.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 01:11:45 pm by Spasman »

Offline Monsteri

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2016, 01:35:42 pm »
Thanks for the feedback everyone, much appreciated!

It's genuinely awesome. Sincere thanks for all the work.

I have one small criticism: to me, the player models look as if they're *behind* the terrain, as if the ground they are walking on is much much closer to us than the player model itself. At times. Like shown below.

(Probably largely because the new lighting and whatnot aren't applied to player models? Perhaps this is okay and I'm just wrong, you'd know better. Just thought I'd share.)

Thanks again! It looks excellent.
If you're going to put the art into high res, then you're going to heavily need to redo the gostek animations because high res art is going to reveal how "clumsy" the animations are to newer players and potentially turn them off from the game.

The trick to Soldat's """"ugly"""" art style was it was imaginative. MM didn't have to work hard on the animations because the player could  fill in the blanks as to what was happening because the low res would be beneficial and blend sprites together. With high resolution, I feel like its gonna look weird to see a player rotate his arms to throw a grenade, or oscillate his legs when walking forward.

I've only seen screenshots so correct me if you've already improved the animations, but I think if you're going to gut the art style, you're going to have to change the other aesthetics of the game as well.

I'm glad you are still updating, those are just my thoughts as a retired loyal player and a fellow developer who made his own game heavily inspired by Soldat.
Indeed, I've done small changes to gostek positioning to try and hide most of the flaws, but they are still there because the animations are fundamentally flawed. We hope to redo the system after 1.8, it's too big of a task for now. Gosteks do indeed look a little flat as well, which we hope to improve at the same time. You can check out the guy on the chair in blue base for a vague idea how we envision the future gosteks ;)
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Offline Ricrylonten

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2016, 03:09:58 pm »
I think changing the art destroys an essential part of the original game, I played for the simple pixel graphics and beautiful UI.  Michal is still out there intentionally making pixel games met with even better success, I don't think downgrading the aesthetic is going to restore the player base to what it once was.

Oh my god, Rocketsoft. Now there's a name I never thought I'd see again! Good to have you around, man.

As for the visual updates: everything looks great. However, I hope 1.8 will include some more detailed graphics options for competitive players to minimize visual clutter and maximize performance :)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 03:14:19 pm by Ricrylonten »

Offline Dusty

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2016, 03:29:40 pm »
the pictures look great, an upgrade that stays true to the original

hopefully you can maintain a coherent style throughout

Offline daaw

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2016, 03:35:18 pm »
Well..damn ..you could almost get confused with some 2016 game.
If other maps be like this ..looks very promising that soldat could finally hit steam.

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Offline Falcon`

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2016, 03:58:04 pm »
I don't, I've started to put their names in release posts alongside devs and other contributors. They'll also possibly appear in GUI's credits section, but we're still discussing that bit.
As for rank, relax - it's just a rank. I can get him "Soldat Artist" if you care so much.
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Offline daaw

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2016, 04:25:28 pm »
Naa.. it's light-headed comment, I'm just saying ..as i have (i think) seen..that programmers (somewhere) tend to value their skill more than ..for example artist.

Offline Colt

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2016, 10:00:47 pm »
This looks rad. I can't wait to be able to play on a Mac (dare to dream) and come out of retirement!

Offline SpeziFisch

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2016, 04:51:34 am »
Since around ten years i totally forgot about soldat, but this news just popped up. Damn this looks great!
I'll try 1.7 today and give it a go again.

Offline Sonfy

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2016, 05:36:00 am »
it is pretty nice.Thank you for that incredible work.I will install soldat again as soon as possible thanks to  new art directionn

Offline xrealx369

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2016, 08:59:35 am »
Great job! Really amazing :D
Next step : Soldat on steam :)
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Offline duz

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2016, 10:17:02 am »
Beautiful work. Unfortunately there's a ugly HUD to make your art worse.
Are you going to cover all the 287382732 maps with your design?
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Offline darDar

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2016, 11:01:53 am »
Beautiful work. Unfortunately there's a ugly HUD to make your art worse.
Are you going to cover all the 287382732 maps with your design?
We will reduce official map list to ~ 15 per game mode, mb. More maybe less, depending on progress.
There's already a new official map pool, which will be released *somewhen*.
I guess the HUD will be touched as well, at some point in the future.
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Offline machina

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2016, 01:50:40 pm »
I was always worried what this "new art direction" could be for Soldat and this post is a relief for me.

This change was required since a while and I'm glad everything goes into the right direction.

Offline xdragon1x1

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2016, 05:59:44 pm »
Looks awesome. Just keep this amazing work you have done. thx for the effort.

Offline duz

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2016, 01:28:29 am »
We will reduce official map list to ~ 15 per game mode, mb. More maybe less, depending on progress.
There's already a new official map pool, which will be released *somewhen*.
I guess the HUD will be touched as well, at some point in the future.
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Offline Ratman

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2016, 02:29:27 am »
Looks amazing!

Hopefully HUD and user interface in general gets an update for the next release.


Offline DorkeyDear

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2016, 08:50:41 am »
Wow, amazing job! From personal experience, it seems a lot of people I know care about graphics more than gameplay when first looking at a game, so this is certainly important to many people. I really like how there is a plan for a cohesive style; Dropdown certainly looks really nice. I can certainly see 1.8 looking like this bringing new players to Soldat.

Quote
The goals of the new art direction are a cohesive style, much improved visuals, and improved readability of the game elements.
Does the focus on game elements mean the looks/style of the menu system is going to be left mostly untouched for 1.8?

Offline Monsteri

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2016, 09:01:17 am »
Quote
The goals of the new art direction are a cohesive style, much improved visuals, and improved readability of the game elements.
Does the focus on game elements mean the looks/style of the menu system is going to be left mostly untouched for 1.8?

Nope! More details about this in the future.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline paintZoom

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2016, 05:08:48 pm »
i gotta say that game enviroment is too "still" currently.  it makes the game feel like playin on top of a picture xD
as someone suggested you could add parallax or particle effects to include on specific parts of the map to make it a bit more alive (smoke columns, mists, classic fire on a can, blinkin lights, that kind of stuff that give u environmet/atmosphere)
or some animation system for the maps u know "tools" for the creative..
but anyway that art is lookin really great
i showed the screenshots to some people and  they went "wow thats cool" so the job is gettin done quite nicely :D
keep up the good work!


Offline CCalp

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
Amazing job, monsteri. Thank you so much for for all the time you spend on Soldat!

My Feedback: Everything great, only the crates look a little too cartoony. (wouldn't be a big deal for me, but just sayin)

Offline soulblade

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2016, 12:34:09 pm »
This looks so much better, looking forward to seeing the other maps. Just please don't mess with the layouts and colliders of the originals.

Edit: We need to get on with the marketing of this as well if we want anyone to appreciate this beauty of an update.

I mean does Soldat even have a twitter account?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 04:49:25 am by soulblade »

Offline themangokid

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2016, 09:25:09 am »
This will be soooooo gooood with a 144 hertz screen. I'm just going to run around and look at the maps to begin with..!

Offline homerofgods

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2016, 10:53:45 am »
This will be soooooo gooood with a 144 hertz screen. I'm just going to run around and look at the maps to begin with..!
Combined with a good graphics card you can use for antialiasing and stuff you're gonna be soo happy ;)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 11:13:47 am by homerofgods »

Offline porquilho

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2016, 04:34:35 pm »
This looks incredible, this type of stuff will increase more the number of players who download the game than actually adding stuff to the game.
More new players => bigger community => soldat death avoided

Now the next thing we should do is to remove the lag from the Barret. This has killed that gun for good, its not fun to play with it since it was introduced a lag, you guys ruined a perfectly fine gun.

Thanks for whoever made this new version possible.

Offline Mokkun

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2016, 04:18:16 pm »
Nice fucking job, I personally like the original graphics of the game because I always put gameplay above graphics but yeah I know a lot of people that will refuse to touch a game if the graphics are too "shitty".
That being said the new art direction looks amazing. I agree with some people that said "the players style now look a bit off" but I think it can be fixed pretty easily.

Thanks a lot to you guys for keeping this game alive and adding more features, and for all the work you put the keep the player base alive too. Soldat is one of my favorite game of all time and I wish more people could see the potential and the fun this game can bring.

Thanks again, you guys rocks.


Offline kusyi

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2016, 01:07:26 pm »
Great job, keep going.
^^

Offline You Got Served!

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2016, 07:56:19 pm »
Thank you for inviting us to share our thoughts. Here are mine...

You are ugly and have been since creation. Soldat (pre 1.7.0) is gorgeous.

I don't get why all these guys are boning Monsteri for having produced something which a ten year old could have done within 30 minutes on MS paint.

I will literally piss myself to death if these re-skinned maps are released with credit to the current dev team as opposed to the original map makers.

One can easily change the look of Soldat by using mods. This is essentially what you are. Modders. Not creators/developers. These classic maps look dated yes - that's because they're old. Are you going to suggest that your Nan should get some plastic surgery done? I will take you guys seriously when I see some genuinely brilliant and original content being produced. Stop piggybacking on the success of yesterday and establish your own content. Noob Produce!

Many, many Soldat maps are genius in design and absolutely should be preserved in their original form. What even is this "dead space" you speak of. So because you haven't figured out how to play 14 year old maps means your going to remove them from the zip or mutilate them? Such horseplay. Stop it. It isn't funny.

Did Potato Jesus teach you nothing?

Offline Akinaro

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2016, 03:32:22 am »
Thank you for inviting us to share our thoughts. Here are mine...

You are ugly and have been since creation. Soldat (pre 1.7.0) is gorgeous.

Cool, its your opinion, but its a game, not personal toy. Its product for masses, not for bunch of old players that play it because its remind them "good old days".
And as any product, if you want it to exist on market, you need to modify it to fit new times and trends.
You need to work on it taking in to the account voice of all players new and old. And right now Soldat need new players, so it need to fit their needs.

Those are basics rules of creating any public content.
For past years, bunch of  people like you was limiting Soldat to evolve, because you cry like little girl when one polygon was changed in map, and you cant sleep at night because of that.
Soldat was stuck as personal toy of old players that cry everytime when something is changed. And now we have result of that tactic: game is dying like never before, and all you can see in public servers are the same faces... all the time, almost 0 new players.
Because remember that public servers,not gathers are power that keep game alive.

I don't get why all these guys are boning Monsteri for having produced something which a ten year old could have done within 30 minutes on MS paint.
Be our guest! Create Mockup of ONE MAP in MS paint! Or at least part of it! C'mon! Or you just like talking?

Monsteri made great job here, and I know how hard is to work almost alone in project. I spend years helping people in their projects and I know how damn hard is to try to make something new keeping old style.
Yes, maybe some part are "too cartoon'ish" but its a mater or few small fixes on few object. Rest is perfect for soldat, it can fight in market with any other 2D action game with that graphic. Even if it still lack of few things that need to be add(paralax, multitexture and simple animated/physic objects)

One can easily change the look of Soldat by using mods. This is essentially what you are. Modders. Not creators/developers.

So go get older version of Soldat, and try to create mod like that... be our guest!

As i see most of changes are under the hood, just like new way of management gostek graphic that now is in one simple file, you can modify every part of it... could you made that in mod in older Soldat? No. Because you dont see small things, you just see your own nose in front of you.


Many, many Soldat maps are genius in design and absolutely should be preserved in their original form.

Examples?
Because you realize that most of maps WILL preserve their original design, and all what will be done is graphic on top of it? You gonna cry because there will be changed one polygon so you will need to learn again how to play map?

I personally would like to lost one player like you and get 2 new ones if this update will be released.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 03:34:20 am by Akinaro »

Offline Xestor

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2016, 08:33:40 pm »
gamebreaking bugs have been in this game for years and nothing really changed
visual improvements will not really bring a new activity if the game is still in the state as it was 10 years ago

just my unpopular and unpleased opinion, peace

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2016, 07:16:07 am »
gamebreaking bugs have been in this game for years and nothing really changed
visual improvements will not really bring a new activity if the game is still in the state as it was 10 years ago

just my unpopular and unpleased opinion, peace
What game breaking bugs?
Netcode and eats? Yeah, sure... But CS GO has an almost equally as bad netcode/hit registration.

Visuals is one of the most important things for a game, nowadays.
As well as the ability to customize your character.

Offline Ettan

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2016, 09:59:59 am »
Love it! Keep it up guys, you're doing great :)

Offline duz

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2016, 05:32:35 pm »
No more spoilers?
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Offline DutchFlame

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2017, 03:57:27 pm »
Please tell us what's going on or declare death. it feels empty out here

Offline soldat-game

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2017, 09:18:45 am »
paralax hahahaha oh akinaro oh akinaro hahahaha

Offline duz

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2017, 06:23:08 am »
No news about this? There's something going on?
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Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2017, 12:49:32 am »
Looking at these again.

The soldiers really need a complete rework.
I don't think it's necessary to stick to the traditional gostek "theme".

Offline machina

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2017, 03:39:36 pm »
The soldiers really need a complete rework.
I don't think it's necessary to stick to the traditional gostek "theme".
What would you like them to be like precisely? I don't think there's much that can be changed due to the magnitudes. Imo it's fine.

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2017, 03:00:36 am »
That's up to whoever makes them.

They don't fit with the shadowing and lighting effects... Nor do  they fit the graphical style.
At the moment they look like "programmer art". While the rest of the things look polished.

Offline Hubiq

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2017, 01:11:29 am »
Hi guys

1.8 version will be released this year?

Offline Monsteri

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2017, 06:16:51 am »
Hi guys

1.8 version will be released this year?
Most likely, yes, unless some calamity happens.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline RBK

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2017, 05:29:47 pm »
LOL u guys are really really funny if u think remaking few maps will change anything , u guys are nothing but just fucking nerds talking on forums, join fucking irc #soldat and try to play some games u will see that SOLDAT IS DEAD .. shit u drivin me crazy guys.. u r not even playing just talking shits on forums for years, do you fucking understand it wont help? god... fucking unbelieveable... shit im just gonna commit suicide cya

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2017, 08:09:34 pm »
LOL u guys are really really funny if u think remaking few maps will change anything , u guys are nothing but just fucking nerds talking on forums, join fucking irc #soldat and try to play some games u will see that SOLDAT IS DEAD .. shit u drivin me crazy guys.. u r not even playing just talking shits on forums for years, do you fucking understand it wont help? god... fucking unbelieveable... shit im just gonna commit suicide cya
I would be playing if the wm wasn't so botched.
And dardar rather have the game die than to add the servers with my wm onto his gather bot.

Offline soldat-game

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2017, 06:21:15 am »
LOL u guys are really really funny if u think remaking few maps will change anything , u guys are nothing but just fucking nerds talking on forums, join fucking irc #soldat and try to play some games u will see that SOLDAT IS DEAD .. shit u drivin me crazy guys.. u r not even playing just talking shits on forums for years, do you fucking understand it wont help? god... fucking unbelieveable... shit im just gonna commit suicide cya
I would be playing if the wm wasn't so botched.
And dardar rather have the game die than to add the servers with my wm onto his gather bot.
Yes I also do not want to play because the dar dar broke weapom mod

Offline Shoozza

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2017, 10:56:49 am »
@RBK there is a discord chat now, which means split community when it comes to chat. https://discord.gg/YZzEn9Y
@ginn Btw you can host your own servers with your own wm, not sure if it will help much though.

Rules
Tools: ARSSE - SARS - SRB - chatMod

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2017, 06:29:30 pm »
@RBK there is a discord chat now, which means split community when it comes to chat. https://discord.gg/YZzEn9Y
@ginn Btw you can host your own servers with your own wm, not sure if it will help much though.
I did, or I made a wm that was great, and Azwraith hosted them on his server.
But, Dardar wouldn't add those servers to his gather bot, and make it a special command to add to those servers... Nor would he allow me to use Azwraiths gather bot which would only react to !addwm, and wouldn't interefere with other gather bot.

Offline paintZoom

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2017, 10:04:10 am »
join fucking irc #soldat
bro why u need all that fancy stuff when u can just click on soldat icon then get some servers and have your fun...
soldat aint dead .. i play cool matches everyday on "public" servers and there is a lot of players flowin the whole week on the austral / zab.
about the "wm" at this point no one really cares about that shit (unless u have OCD).. u fire u die u respawn its the same. it aint like u will have more fun if u have few more bullets xD
and now that i think a bit ... its actually really cool that the games wm changes constantly givin it a new feelin on each iteration...

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2017, 02:14:17 am »
about the "wm" at this point no one really cares about that shit (unless u have OCD).. u fire u die u respawn its the same. it aint like u will have more fun if u have few more bullets xD
and now that i think a bit ... its actually really cool that the games wm changes constantly givin it a new feelin on each iteration...
If you played the game at a high level it's day and night. The difference now is around 15-20% more damage than it used to be, so you die 15-20% faster than you used to.
This basically shuts down pretty much all strategic play, and makes the game into a deathmatch... Sad thing is, even people in the WM team thinks a lot of the "fast gameplay" that's come is because of movement, which is very far from true. They basically have no idea about weapon balance or how the game felt like before everything got screwed over.

Normal mode has become very close to realistic mode, you die incredibly fast. There's basically no need for defensive play anymore, since you can kill attackers in a split second, even if you're off in positioning.

I made a WM that basically takes us back to 1.4.2 era, or around there. We played a few gathers with it, and it was sooooo much fun... Too bad that's probably the last fun I'll get to have with soldat.
Chances of me getting into the wm team are pretty much null, the decision making people are operating on a childs maturity level.

Code: [Select]
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[Steyr AUG]
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[Spas-12]
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[Ruger 77]
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[M79]
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[Barret M82A1]
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[FN Minimi]
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[XM214 Minigun]
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[USSOCOM]
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[Chainsaw]
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[M72 LAW]
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[Punch]
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[Grenade]
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[Flamer]
Damage=19
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[Rambo Bow]
Damage=12
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[Flamed Arrows]
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Here it is if you want to try it out for yourself, or if you want to host a public server with it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:16:35 am by ginn »

Offline paintZoom

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2017, 09:08:46 pm »
pro dudes away from publics  should kick into public servers for a while
this way devs would see a more homogeneous game and things that are off place will be visible in no time
also this way public players could rise skill level after some time

and to be honest 3v3 organized "ego" matches are not fun at all compared to full blown 6v6 randomness over 90000  matches ..just sayin
that folks could "gather" at publics and it would be a lot more fun for everyone
just imagine the bizarre kick wars  and all that jazz cuz some cheaterz joined and shit


Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2017, 05:55:23 am »
and to be honest 3v3 organized "ego" matches are not fun at all compared to full blown 6v6 randomness over 90000  matches ..just sayin
that folks could "gather" at publics and it would be a lot more fun for everyone
just imagine the bizarre kick wars  and all that jazz cuz some cheaterz joined and shit

Chapter 1
Good players vs The Pubs

My friend, i'm pretty sure everyone who is still left in this game is playing it for fun, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. For me and the rest of the competitive community the game becomes more fun as you get better at it, rather than less fun. With a good play, getting better and better at it reveals more and more depth to you, rather than exposing Soldat's shallowness. Look. In Soldat there are two groups of players: a group of good, aspiring-to-be-expert or expert players and a group of players like you - forever public players(no hate intended). Public players, let's call them The Pubs, play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the mod. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more in a refined way, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often difficult to discover. And you're only capable of discovering all those things while playing over and over again 3v3 games where each mistake may cost you a loss because there is no 10players team behind you that can cover your mistakes at any given time. Most of these things are simply invisible in publics due to it being overcrowded. Any good player would destroy Pub. Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. I'm not judging what is better and what should you do, just putting here a little bit of truth. Now don't get me wrong, at this stage of the game publics are super important for the continuity of the game so we're still doing everything to keep its activity, and the upcoming changes are still mainly targeted at new players, those that need it the most, but the main goal is that we want their learning experience to be better so that they, too, can become expert players one day! Learning to play a brand new game, and movements can be a daunting and hard task, but for most the of the players the aim of the game is to become better at it! Going back to the first beta version of this game, for most of the players, especially newcomers, publics are and have always been an initial station from where they could move on to become better players. It's also totally fine to mess around on public servers with no intention of ever becoming really good, but please don't say that pro games are not fun :) And if someone wants to be better at this game he should be the one to step up and come in to the higher level of play, not the other way around.

The group of Pubs won't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument often claims that ignorantly chasing the opponent on a map with 20 players in just to rush and throwing tons of nades without any purpose just to throw it with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Or to be more charitable, their argument could be that the game becomes less fun if they use tactic X, or map X, or gun X, or X amount of players on the map, or whatever. That might be true temporarily until they figure out how to beat whatever it is, but ultimately the experts are having a more nuanced exchange, more opportunity for expression, for clever plays, for smart strategies, and so on.

Just to give you the example:
HYPE VIDEO
STREAM OF FINAL

The Pubs' games might be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the Pubs can imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter their every move, even their every counter. Reading players minds like in poker. That's beautifull. And if the two groups meet, Pubs and experts, of course the experts will absolutely destroy the Pubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the Pubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the Pubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules. And so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question: What do I desire? Do i want to be The Pub or The expert. Which one is better? I don't know, it's up to you.


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Live and die on this day...
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Offline paintZoom

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2017, 08:19:06 pm »
that is gorgeous.

but dude here  is a fact
i setup the game for some friends to play (local) and i found (obviously) that they had lot more fun or where more "engaged" when there was a total mess with lot of player/bots...
think about it when u first started to play it looked like that... so i guess its designed to be this way.. naturally you would want to maximise the number of max players per server .. i guess it would be a lot more catchy to join a 30plus ppl game for newcomers (huge maps. tactical routes. fancyness.)

so yeah .. picture some huge "warz" with some more "eyecandy" effects (not a real revamp of graphics but more interesting vFX's/Sounds) and maybe soldat  could get a new breath ( everyone would be amazed if u rekt 20plus players on your way to base xD and would be insanely more difficult to do)
ofc the game would need some tweaks like more health.. and who knows what.. but it seems pointless to "aim" the game at the pro or competitive since they could keep Reading their minds on this versi?n forever and become gods...

as it is now the game could be stop being developed and could still be played for years as u said (evolvin metagame and the like)
but that is missing the point... like if suddenly soldat was on steam i bet my ugly teeth that they would ask for "huge servers" and cooler FX's instantly
they wouldnt give a thing about seriously ill zkillz at the beginin but no one else did when u launched the game for first time.. so its ok

- also every person that i show the game has problems firin the law xD that need a fix or a tip somewhere visible
- also it would be cool to play the game using a different "zoom" almost everyone new complains on soldiers being "invisible"

so thats my suggestion there (not new at all) but im pretty sure not so hardcore gamers would enjoy it more that way(maybe turnin them into hardcores later xD)







Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2017, 04:41:46 am »
Petter, play with us (read: me) in OneShots a bit and I bet you'll be singing a different tune

Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2017, 11:33:15 am »
Petter, play with us (read: me) in OneShots a bit and I bet you'll be singing a different tune
Bruh... It would make some sense if you asked me to do it, since I'm not a prevailing 1v1 player (although I do have a pretty good brt)
I'm pretty sure Petter has won most of the 1v1 tournaments, which afaik has a lot of barrettards.

-snip-
Sure, it's important to pay attention to publics when the game launches to steam, and to have some cool vfx and sfx, and maybe bit servers and maps.

However, pubbers play a couple of hours for a couple of days, a few times a year. Total time spent in the game a year could maybe be 10-20 hours...
"competitive players" play 1-8 hours a day, almost every day... So, at a minimum it's 300 hours a year, but could easily be up towards 1500 hours a year.

So which is more important, really?
Pubs are only there to hook players for the competitive scene. The real life of a game comes from the dedicated player base, which is the competitive scene.

The Pubs' games might be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined.
Even the competitive scene can be "wet and wild". There's always new things that radically changes the way the game is played. Like m79 boosting, flag throwing (including super throw, although being banned immediately), a brief dip into movement, and then a huge shift into movement.
It's really not like the game has been played roughly the same way, it's had huge huge shifts that totally changed the way the game played. During those shifts there's always been a duration where the innovative players has been "messing around" and making the games play out messy. So you can't really say experts is usually more controlled and refined, as new tactics and meta shifts are always messy and unrefined.

Though, I think the new WM has pretty much shut down everything, making some weapons completely useless. Combining that with meds and nade kits not spawning properly, you'll never see people defending, because it's just not possible to play that way.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 12:18:42 pm by ginn »

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2017, 03:39:01 am »
Petter, play with us (read: me) in OneShots a bit and I bet you'll be singing a different tune
Bruh... It would make some sense if you asked me to do it, since I'm not a prevailing 1v1 player (although I do have a pretty good brt)
I'm pretty sure Petter has won most of the 1v1 tournaments, which afaik has a lot of barrettards.
Not really comparable/relevant, as those 1v1 tournaments include autos, as opposed to only one shot weapons

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2017, 08:33:47 am »
Though, I think the new WM has pretty much shut down everything, making some weapons completely useless. Combining that with meds and nade kits not spawning properly, you'll never see people defending, because it's just not possible to play that way.
Chapter 2
The current WM is very good for the game to progress

So there are definetly some of you who disagrees, but i really like how the WM has changed over the years because i always thought that weapon damage should be buffed as to lower TTK. Are we all forgetting this is a fast paced shooter game? Often times it is both about reading and reacting to your opponent. So honestly I don't see why it would come as a surprise to people that it is a little more offensively focused. Many years ago when Soldat was not that offensive i said that the number of shots should be lowered from 10+ to 6-7, like thankfully it is now, because there were just too many newcomers that absolutely loved this game but left it several times due to the insanely high TTK. Attacking larger groups with high TTK becomes nigh impossible, as any 1v2+ will almost undoubtedly result in the 2+ players finishing off the single person. Back in the day when launching Soldat when you have low experience, you would of been wrecked by better players. The thing is, with the frankly tiny amount of players we're having now, we won't get skill-based matchmaking because there's nobody else to play with except us-the vets, who, as previously mentioned, can wreck new players without breaking a sweat. Before this WM with increased damage came in, somewhat experienced players could easily take the flag and then run away using their advanced movement until the time runs out. Yes, some unexperienced newbie could occasionally take out the better opponent, but it was a very niche, and this shouldn't be a crucial part of the metagame. Currently, for a newbie the skill gap is not that huge, which is a good thing.

We shouldn't be aiming for a WM that succesfully eliminates the importance of aim and leaves movement abilities as the only differentiating factor between players because we already had it and it was a borefest for any new player. I don't think the upcoming big 1.8 version will catch on with any WM with decreased damage because it's defensive nature will likely render it a game that is not fun to watch. One of the reasons Soldat can still be a big, popular, monumental game is how simple it is to pick up and play and how it literally catered to every skill level. As a noob you dont need to know how to canonball to enjoy Soldat. If someone picks up the game and finds out it is extremely hard to kill someone due to high TTK and many other factors, he would just leave it straight away.

I was a young brat but i do remember the times and the reality back in when Soldat was released as a 0.something beta version. It grew to popularity because it was easy to learn and hard to master. Soldat was new, internet gaming was new, at least in Poland and in the central Europe as well. Everybody was bad. The gap of skill between newbies and active casuals to "pros" wasn't very big, and was easy enough to cross, simply because the general level of play was so low that the learning curve wasn't overtly steep. There was a natural "road of progression".

Now times have changed. Today there is a massive gap between newbies and veteran players, and even more massive between them and the top 1%. As the game progressed the skill curve became way too steep and the separation of player skill way too steep for a modern audience without a massive starting player base for matchmaking. There is no road of natural progression because the extremes have grown too far apart with little to no stopgaps in between. Either you make a massive dedicated effort to study, practice and learn standard of "basics" before you can even play technically the same game as your betters - or you spend your time getting hopelessly raped, and end up quitting the game having learned nothing and without having progressed anywhere. This problem can only be fixed with either a good WM - like we're having now, or the matchmaking system (an artifical substitute for "everyone is equally bad"). The easier WM is a total MUST anyways because we need to produce a gray mass of players to then create the matchmaking system. There is no other way because Soldat's player base is too small. This kind of WM should have been implemented long time ago, but its better late than never.

Now you may claim that the current WM is indeed good for a newcomer, but very bad for vets whose experience has been vanished. No, not at all. Skill and knowledge pays off over damage aka sprey and pray. This WM benefits newcomers on some occasions and other players on other occasions but in the long run, during the entire match it doesn't favor them because the better players will always end up taking a lead using the tactics newcomers have either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. Take a look at the SCTFL seasons. The skill gap is still there, it's just not that big, which is a very good thing.

Tactic is still a factor, and in cases where the players are otherwise close to, or totally equal, can thus be a determining factor, which is why in videos of pros like in HERE, it will often be the difference between who wins and who loses. This is true of the pros in a lot of games - there often is very little separating in their technical mastery of the game, and so strategy ends up being the deciding factor. Really then it's just a question of how much technique you like in your play on a certain map. Some people don't like to have to practice a bunch of stuff before they can even remotely get into the strategy, and don't want to lose to someone who they've got beaten strategically in cases where that simply doesn't give them enough of an edge to overcome their opponents superior reaction time etc. So the tactic and skill still makes the difference in the outcome, and so does superior aim, dodging in individual firefights on a certain route in the given map, and so the out-maneuvering aspect plays a larger role in determining the outcome and the communication between players like TS and stuff like that. WM is not the only factor that determines the result, so nothing anyone has said has thus far convinced me otherwise at all. Focusing on the pro-level, SCTFL playoffs for instance(where everyone's aim and movement is extremely good). If you took someone with excellent strategy, but average aim and dodging ability, and placed them against someone with excellent aim and dodging ability, but average strategy, who do you think the result would favour? I tend to think it's obvious enough, and this highlights my point; strategy is STILL a more major factor in determining who wins in one case than another.

And therefore i do believe that this is the right way of developing the WM. Yes it boils down to "click the other guy before he clicks me" but we need that now for the playerbase to grow. Low TTK means that the game becomes powerful as players have little chance to react. Magazine size matters less, as you can kill enough targets in a single magazine. Spray&pray become more important than accurate firing because lucky hits can net you a kill already, meaning sprey weapons are overall the best to mow down enemies. This is the type of gameplay we should stick to to make everyone, ESPECIALLY THE NEWCOMERS, feel powerful, as anyone can get lucky and accidentally murder a few dudes. Does it vanish the experience? No, not at all as i explained above.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:04:15 pm by Petterkowski »


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Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2017, 09:58:26 am »
I'm just gonna make it a huge quote, because there's no good way to seperate lines with these old board formats.
>Often times it is both about reading and reacting to your opponent.
No, it's not. Since the TTK is so low, all you have to do is spray or "aim" in the direction and you get the kill.
>So honestly I don't see why it would come as a surprise to people that it is a little more offensively focused.
I'm very "offensivly focused", and the game is just really bad now. It's really not that "offensive", it's just brute force. You throw bodies until one lucks out with lag and get a cap, that's really what makes the difference now. Tactics are gone.
>there were just too many newcomers that absolutely loved this game but left it several times due to the insanely high TTK.
Then they didn't love the game, did they? If they thought the TTK was too long they could play realistic. Or a server with a weapons mod.
>as any 1v2+ will almost undoubtedly result in the 2+ players finishing off the single person.
With a high TTK yes, that's true.
You know why that's good? Because that means teamwork is highly important. With proper position, and catching other players off posisiton, that may mean you can actually win that 2v1. It meas better strategy and tactics, with better teamwork wins.

With this low TTK it means that it really comes down to eats. You ate a nade, so now you freely get that 1v2 win, and you get the cap.
>Yes, some unexperienced newbie could occasionally take out the better opponent, but it was a very niche, and this shouldn't be a crucial part of the metagame. Currently, for a newbie the skill gap is not that huge, which is a good thing.
Somehow you believe it's a bad thing that skilled players dominate unskilled players... I really don't understand you. This is why you should never have been in the beta team, and why you really shouldn't have any say in anything about soldat.

Newbies don't play with veterans, it's never going to happen. Veteran players will not find any enjoyment to play against newbies, and newbies won't find it fun to play against veterans. Making the skills a veteran has obtained pointless will just make the veteran player quit the game.

>We shouldn't be aiming for a WM that succesfully eliminates the importance of aim and leaves movement abilities as the only differentiating factor between players because we already had it and it was a borefest for any new player.
That's what's been happening though, spread, and low TTK. Basically, aim doesn't matter that much anymore.
Movement SHOULD play a huge role, so should should aim, positioning, strategy, and being able to read the game flow.

At the moment, the only thing that matters is to have a bit better aim, and eat more, more or less at least.
>I don't think the upcoming big 1.8 version will catch on with any WM with decreased damage because it's defensive nature will likely render it a game that is not fun to watch.
And with that the game completely dies, no newbies will really play it, and veterans will completely drop the game.
>Now you may claim that the current WM is indeed good for a newcomer, but very bad for vets whose experience has been vanished. No, not at all. Skill and knowledge pays off over damage aka sprey and pray.
You sound like you're trying to tell the working class that it's a good thing they pay as much taxes as those who make 100 fold their salary.

The WM is bad for everyone. Every newbie still just play barrett and m79, and pros are left with a horribly bad WM.
 
>Tactic is still a factor, and in cases where the players are otherwise close to, or totally equal, can thus be a determining factor
It's not.
There are no tactics anymore. The only tactic is "LETS SMASH THEM AT UP INSTEAD OF MID!!!!".

There's no med pack and nades stealing, there's no defense that requires proper positioning, there's just no tactics involved at all. It's just rushing and hope you get a double kill and eat some nades so you can boost out with the flag.
>So the tactic and skill still makes the difference in the outcome
As I've said... No, the difference in the outcome is lag, primarily. Whichever side gets the more important eats wins.
>If you took someone with excellent strategy, but average aim and dodging ability, and placed them against someone with excellent aim and dodging ability, but average strategy, who do you think the result would favour?
The person with excellent aim and dodging ability would win 10-0. Strategy and tactics are dead.
I'm very much into strategy and tactics in this game, it was one of the things I loved the most... There's a reason we could get out wins with only 2/3rds (like 70vs110 kills) of the kills of the opponents was because of movement and strategy ( https://youtu.be/dYKYD1YITZ0?t=2m18s  (2min 18s) you think these law shots were a fluke? These were practiced, to time the law travel time for capper to be able to take flag as it drops... I did this both with PR and /MB/).

I was even the only person in the top 10 with a K/D below 0.9, the next ranked player with such a low K/D was below top 50 (Even lesonen had a higher K/D).
>I tend to think it's obvious enough, and this highlights my point; strategy is STILL a more major factor in determining who wins in one case than another.
No? It completely failed it? Reading through it, I was pretty sure you'd say that aim and dodging is the determining factor.
Strategy and tactics has no place in soldat at the moment, and probably never more.
>And therefore i do believe that this is the right way of developing the WM. Yes it boils down to "click the other guy before he clicks me" but we need that now for the playerbase to grow.
You believe the best way to make a wm is to eliminate tactics, strategy, movement, and aim... Because you want veterans and newbies to be on the same skill cieling. You're practically suggesting that CS would be better if NGEV had AWP dmg.
>Low TTK means that the game becomes powerful as players have little chance to react. Magazine size matters less, as you can kill enough targets in a single magazine. Spray&pray become more important than accurate firing because lucky hits can net you a kill already, meaning sprey weapons are overall the best to mow down enemies.
Yes, low TTK means that there's less skill invovled, it's just mindless killing... Like DM, which you so much like.
That's not a good thing.
>This is the type of gameplay we should stick to to make everyone, ESPECIALLY THE NEWCOMERS, feel powerful, as anyone can get lucky and accidentally murder a few dudes. Does it vanish the experience? No, not at all as i explained above.
Why don't we just make official aimbots? So newcomers can feel powerful.

Newbies playing other newbies will occasionally feel powerful no matter the WM.

You're full of bullshit, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. This is why soldat is dying, if the game had remained fun people would've kept playing it, at least occasionally.
Still a few people in #soldat, but I quit many years ago, really only participating in sctfl because I thought it'd be the last one ever (which this time probably was).

Offline Herleck

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2017, 01:38:33 am »
Quote
Chapter 1
Good players vs The Pubs


[Too much bullshit...]

Chapter 2
The current WM is very good for the game to progress


[Too much bullshit...]

It is so stupid HAHAHAHA Chief I have idea for the next part!

Part 3
I took my meds and everything come back to normal
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 01:55:59 am by Herleck »

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2017, 06:02:58 pm »
Chapter 3
In-depth clarification; LOW TTK vs HIGH TTK

Somehow you believe it's a bad thing that skilled players dominate unskilled players
I never said that. I am not saying that higher skill players don't dominate, what I'm saying is that with the current WM the conditions for success are much easier to attain for beginners. Skilled players will always have an advantage in any WM system over unskilled players. Indeed they have a slightly higher advantage in high TTK systems, which you promote so much, because the effects of randomness and surprise are reduced. I also agree with you that with a low TTK a given player is much more instrumental to a team's success than the team as a whole. The game is about reactions and predictability, which is again a good thing in my eyes. Let's go through it:

To push it to extremes, in a REALLY high TTK a random Major would have a (small) chance against the best CTF player only if they both have 1 health remaining. On the other hand, he would have zero chance if they both had 100 health because all of the ways he could have won in the first scenario would end up washed out by the huge skill difference during a longer confrontation. This is the extreme you are hoping for. Currently Soldat is situated somewhere in the middle with overall of a medium TTK(yes it used to be higher, but currently it's also not that low) where the balance between the two definitely makes some dynamic fights in the game, where there's fast paced gun fights, as well as boring waitup battles. Currently the newbie has slightly bigger chance of killing the pro, but it's still a small chance. I say it works really well right now when lower skilled players are matched with higher skilled players(yes it happens all the time), at least giving them half a chance to get some kills. It's still near impossible for new players to win against higher skilled players, as they'll lack the coordination to effectively attack a well defended site or effectively defend and rotate against a well executed attack. Further, due to their relationship to movement, there are lots of options for making yourself harder to hit, which often leads to fairly long shootouts(at least at sub-pro levels.) If you're thinking otherwise take a look at the SCTFL titles section. For the past few years each season was dominated by the exact same players and the exact same 3,4 clans(out of 30 that were participating highly active). Don't you think that if skill and tactics were really not here anymore, we would have had by now a different finalist/winner each season? Who has more skills and better tactics will still get more wins. They might not get that 10-0 rampage, but their skill is still reflected on the final outcome. There will always be a skill gap that's just simple unreachable for a new guy who's just picked up the game for the first time. It's just the learning process goes faster now and its easier for the newbie to progress.

Due to low ttk strategy and tactics has no place in soldat at the moment, and probably never more. there's just no tactics involved at all. It's just rushing and hope you get a double kill and eat some nades so you can boost out with the flag.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're exaggerating. Counter-Strike has one of the fastest TTK of any FPS and proves otherwise. What would you say are some of the most skillful games from both of those categories(high and low TTK)? I'm having some trouble thinking of the best high ttk games. They seem to be fairly uncommon these days because they are not fun to watch due to high TTK being very frustrating for everyone involved as it's too easy for players to call in backup. 2 on 1s usually look horrendously bad in a high TTK game, while in a short TTK game you can still maneuver and use skill to kill both enemies. And please don't bring up eats in here because eats do happen in Soldat indeed, but do it happen consistently to the same person? Probably not so in the long term, skill and knowledge pays off over luck. Luck do exist in every game. Randomness benefits a particular player on some occasions and other players on other occasions but in the long run, during the entire match randomness doesn't favor anyone. Everyone will get lucky and unlucky, but the better players will always end up taking a lead. One lucky situation will never be the determinant of the final outcome. There are many other factors that make a greater contribution to the final result.

To sum it up, I think the biggest problem I have with high ttk is that I feel like I can get the great position on someone, have the advantage, play the map well, but the fight is only slightly more in my favor because the other person has so much more time to react. Basically what I am saying is that it reduces the need for strategy and understanding the map and how it will give you an advantage over the other player. The advantage map knowledge gives a player in a low ttk is much greater than a high ttk. I'm sure you will start arguing that isn't the case but this has been my experience and makes intuitive sense. Why would you be afraid to run out in the open when you know you can absorb more bullets? For me this is how I see it.

On a sidenote; You should learn to respect other players opinions, ginn, because it's a matter of preference, because the difference leads to different kinds of gameplay. If you can't shoot you are going to get slaughtered in high TTK, and if you don't play smart or have slow reactions you are going to get slaughtered in low TTK. Neither game takes more skill, it is just a different skill set to master. Soldat offers somewhat medium TTK that combines both features. Yes it still needs few obvious and smaller damage adjustments that we are all aware of, but i do believe we're on the right track.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 07:09:33 am by Petterkowski »


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Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2017, 09:41:00 am »
CS is primarily a reaction and aim game, there's obviously strategy involved, but the main part is reaction and aim. A team with the best aimers and with the best reaction time will crush teams with not as good reaction times but with tactics.
Q3 is an example of long ttk game, and it's way more interesting to watch then CS, it also involves way more tactics and strategy. While aim still gives you a good advantage, knowing the map, the timings, and using good tactics, you're more likely to win.

I'm not sure why CS has so much popularity, it's probably for the same reasons as LoL/DotA. Not so much how good the game is, but because most ADHD 13 year olds play them.

Yes, eats happen more consistently for some people, long term. You're one of them, that is why generally people won't throw nades at you, as it's proven pointless over the years (I've actually had those conversations with people, throwing nades at you only messes up our own aim, but has maybe a 20% chance to damage/kill you).
When I tried to not cap my FPS in game I got a lot more comments on eats, and I saw them happening at a much higher rate than I've seen before.

If you can't use a positional advantage then you're just bad, if you're doing it right you can even do 1v3 defenses. Well, used to, now you just get killed in less than half a second by guns only. It's pretty much realistic mode at this point.