Author Topic: 1.7.1 WM balance  (Read 26079 times)

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Offline CCalp

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2016, 08:52:30 am »
I agree with machina. Without offense, your suggestions seem totally random to me, ginn.
The only thing I can agree with is that AK is quite useless right now. Apart from the, the WM seems better than the previous one to me, yet it is not perfect yet.

Offline Falcon`

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2016, 11:04:24 am »
Eats are when you take no damage, instead just get boosted away.
That is exactly what I said.
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Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2016, 06:46:49 pm »
My WM.

Notable changes are, ~20% overall damage reduction, and no movement acc or spread (except the obvious ones).
This has two goals.

First is to make movement, or running, more possible, as it's atm more or less eniterly shut down by low TTKs.
The second is to reward people for having good aim, as well as making a slower playstyle possible too, since proper aiming is now possible.

Ruger added bink, higher modifier for HS, lower modifier for leg/torso. It'll no longer guarantee kill in 2 hits, instead requires both shots to HS to 2 hit kill, otherwise it's always 3 hit kill. Might be UP, but better than OP.
Steyr is a HS hunter, high reward for hs, punishment for torso/legs, will be good at top routes (such as death) and choke points. May change out for something else, such as self-bink, spread, or 1.0 modifier medium TTK.
DEs are 4 hit kill, with 8 ammo, shoots faster, reloads faster. HS/body shot makes no difference.
Spas is 2-3 hit kill on medium to close distance (very short TTK if 2 hit, longer if 3 hit). Made leg/torso hit modifier a bit higher.
mp5 hit modifier changed, to 1.0 for feet/torso/head, like DE.
AK/Minimi more distinctive, AK having a very slow fire rate, but each bullet is stronger (Low TTK if all hits). Minimi slightly slower than usual fire rate, might be op due to ammo and spray capability.
LAW has no start up time, but has bink, and longer fireinterval. The intent is to avoid the "law why you no shoot" bug.

Changes:
Code: [Select]
[All modified weapons]
Movement accuracy = 0

[All modified weapons (except mp5, spas and minigun)]
Spread = 0

[Desert Eagles]
-0.66 dmg
-6 fireinterval
+1 ammo
-17 reload time
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[HK MP5]
-0.19 dmg
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[Ak-74]
-0.104 dmg
+2 fire interval
+12 bink
+0.00324 push
+0.4 speed

[Steyr AUG]
-0.16 dmg
ModifierHead=1.25
ModifierChest=0.85
ModifierLegs=0.85

[Spas-12]
-0.28 dmg
+0.0004 push
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Ruger 77]
-0.49 dmg
-5 fire interval
ModifierHead=1.245
ModifierChest=0.84
ModifierLegs=0.84

[FN Minimi]
-0.03dmg
+1 fireinterval
+0.00096 push
-0.4 speed


[XM214 Minigun]
-0.18 dmg
-120 reload time
+0.0021 push

[USSOCOM]
-0.09 dmg
+1 fireinterval
-2 ammo

[M72 LAW]
+14 fireinterval
-13 startup time
+30 bink

Full new WM
Code: [Select]
; The Official Soldat Weapons Mod:
; Notes:
; 1. Some settings for non-standard weapons won't work for example: reload time on stationary gun or grenade for obvious reasons
; 2. Soldat uses ticks for measuring time. 60 ticks = 1 second
; 3. e.g. 90 ticks = 1.5 second, 10 ticks = 0.16666667 second
; 4. FireInterval, ReloadTime, Bink and StartUpTime are measured in ticks

; Damage Calculation:
; The 'Damage' value does NOT represent the actual damage dealt by a bullet. The formula for calculating the final damage dealt by a bullet is the result of: [Damage] * [CurrentSpeed] * [HitboxModifier]
; Note that your personal speed may inherit speed to the bullet.
; CurrentSpeed = Speed + PlayerSpeed * Inherited Velocity

; Fireinterval:
; The rate of fire is measured in ticks. The lower the interval, the faster the weapon fires.

; Ammo:
; Defines the size of a full clip.

; Reloadtime:
; The reloadtime is measured in ticks. e.g. ReloadTime=360 will result in a 6 seconds reload period.

; Speed:
; The speed is the initial base speed of a bullet. speed affects damage and does also influence the 'self boost' amount for Spas-12 and XM214 Minigun.
; A fired bullet is affected by the velocity of the player (YourSpeed).
; A fired bullet loses its speed over time, which will then also result in less damage.

; Bullet Styles:

;  1 = Plain bullet
;  2 = Frag grenade
;  3 = Shotgun pellets
;  4 = M79 grenade
;  5 = Flame
;  6 = Punch
;  7 = Arrow
;  8 = Flame arrow
; 11 = Knife/Chainsaw
; 12 = LAW missile
; 13 = Knife
; 14 = M2 bullet

; Example: changing the value 'BulletStyle=4' to 'BulletStyle=12' at the [M79] config, will result in LAW missiles being fired.

; StartUpTime:
; The StartUpTime is measured in ticks. It is currently being used at the XM214 Minigun and the Barret.
; e.g. 'StartUpTime=120 will result in 2 seconds of a delay.

; Bink:
; If the player is hit by a bullet, his aim is not accurate for this amount of time, the mouse cursor in-game will then enlarge as an indicator.
; Negative values mean self-bink. The lower the number, the more inaccurate the weapon will get after firing.

; MovementAcc:
; Defines how much the aim is getting affected by the players movement, the higher the value, the more you have to be still to aim properly. Using the jet results in the aim to be affected the most.

; BulletSpread:
; Defines how tight or loose the bullets will group when standing still.

; Recoil:
; Defines the amount that the cursor will fling up when fired.

; Push:
; Defines the weight of a bullet, factors together with its velocity to push away the receiving player and objects (flags and kits) but NOT yourself (self boost).

; InheritedVelocity:
; In percent how much velocity the bullet inherits from the player. This will result in higher / lower damage values, depending of the direction you move to and in which speed you move.

; Codename:
;  __  __  _         _   ____  _         _         _     
; |  \/  |(_) _ __  (_) / ___|| | _   _ | |_  ___ | |__
; | |\/| || || '_ \ | || |    | || | | || __|/ __|| '_ \
; | |  | || || | | || || |___ | || |_| || |_| (__ | | | |
; |_|  |_||_||_| |_||_| \____||_| \__,_| \__|\___||_| |_|
                                                       
; Changelog from 1.7.0 to 1.7.1:
;
; - Damage value are now divided by 100 compared to all weapons.ini files before 1.7.1. (Example: 1.7.0 and earlier: "Damage=181" Now: "Damage=1.81")
; - Speed values are now divided by 10.
; - BulletSpread values are now divided by 100.
; - Inherited Velocity values are now divided by 100.
; - MovementAcc values are now divided by 200.
; - Push values are now divided by 2500.
; - Added HitboxModifiers for all weapons.
; - Added option to set ReloadTime and Ammo for the Chainsaw.

; - Due to the divisions, older weapon.ini files will not work as intended, until you fix the values. You can find a weapons.ini converter at: https://github.com/Soldat/WMConverter

; For help please visit:
; #soldat.devs (on IRC QuakeNet)
; http://www.forums.soldat.pl

[Info]
Name=Default mod
Version=1.7.1

[Desert Eagles]
Damage=1.15
FireInterval=18
Ammo=8
ReloadTime=70
Speed=19
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0.0
BulletSpread=0.0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0176
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[HK MP5]
Damage=0.82
FireInterval=6
Ammo=30
ReloadTime=105
Speed=18.9
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0.14
Recoil=0
Push=0.011
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[Ak-74]
Damage=0.95
FireInterval=12
Ammo=35
ReloadTime=165
Speed=27
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0170
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=0.95
ModifierLegs=0.85

[Steyr AUG]
Damage=0.55
FireInterval=7
Ammo=25
ReloadTime=125
Speed=26
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0084
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.25
ModifierChest=0.85
ModifierLegs=0.85

[Spas-12]
Damage=0.94
FireInterval=32
Ammo=7
ReloadTime=175
Speed=14
BulletStyle=3
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0.8
Recoil=0
Push=0.0192
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Ruger 77]
Damage=2
FireInterval=40
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=60
Speed=33
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=10
MovementAcc=0.0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.012
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.245
ModifierChest=0.84
ModifierLegs=0.84

[M79]
Damage=1550
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=178
Speed=10.7
BulletStyle=4
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.036
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Barret M82A1]
Damage=4.45
FireInterval=225
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=70
Speed=55
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=19
Bink=65
MovementAcc=0.05
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.018
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[FN Minimi]
Damage=0.82
FireInterval=10
Ammo=50
ReloadTime=250
Speed=24.6
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.01376
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=0.95
ModifierLegs=0.90

[XM214 Minigun]
Damage=0.45
FireInterval=3
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=360
Speed=29
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=25
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0.0
BulletSpread=0.3
Recoil=0
Push=0.0125
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=0.95
ModifierLegs=0.85

[USSOCOM]
Damage=1.4
FireInterval=11
Ammo=12
ReloadTime=60
Speed=18
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.02
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=0.95
ModifierLegs=0.85

[Combat Knife]
Damage=2150
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=6
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.12
InheritedVelocity=0
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Chainsaw]
Damage=50
FireInterval=2
Ammo=200
ReloadTime=110
Speed=8
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0028
InheritedVelocity=0
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=0.9

[M72 LAW]
Damage=1550
FireInterval=20
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=300
Speed=23
BulletStyle=12
StartUpTime=0
Bink=30
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.028
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Punch]
Damage=330
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=5
BulletStyle=6
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0
InheritedVelocity=0
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Grenade]
Damage=1500
FireInterval=80
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=20
Speed=5
BulletStyle=2
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0
InheritedVelocity=1
ModifierHead=1.0
ModifierChest=1.0
ModifierLegs=1.0

[Stationary Gun]
Damage=1.8
FireInterval=10
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=366
Speed=36
BulletStyle=14
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0088
InheritedVelocity=0
ModifierHead=1.1
ModifierChest=0.95
ModifierLegs=0.85

[Flamer]
Damage=19
FireInterval=6
Ammo=200
ReloadTime=5
Speed=10.5
BulletStyle=5
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.016
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Rambo Bow]
Damage=12
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=25
Speed=21
BulletStyle=7
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0.0148
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9

[Flamed Arrows]
Damage=8
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=39
Speed=18
BulletStyle=8
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=0
BulletSpread=0
Recoil=0
Push=0
InheritedVelocity=0.5
ModifierHead=1.15
ModifierChest=1
ModifierLegs=0.9
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 09:55:26 pm by ginn »

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2016, 11:57:19 pm »
Thanks for putting in the effort to actually make a WM. I'm curious in how well it'll be received by others.

EDIT: I only tried it for a little bit, but I really like the fact the reduction/removal of spread on some weapons. It's incredibly satisfying to have a consistent bullet trajectory so you have an idea how to adjust your aim (though perhaps 0% spread on Steyr was still an overkill). This is one thing I'd like the final WM to adopt. Less randomness.

What I didn't like as much is the very high bullet velocity on a lot of the weapons. While weapons now feel more precise and "snappy", it also made bullet arcs between different weapons a lot less diverse and pushed the engagement range way too far out. Now there's barely any close- or medium-range weapons left. Steyr & AK are lasers with barely any arc. Also reduction in AK's fire rate was a bit too much IMO, it barely feels like an auto anymore.

Just my casual opinion.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 12:24:27 am by L[0ne]R »

Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2016, 12:25:16 pm »
Honestly, I think that wm is a bit too weak, would probably need a slight buff.

But, the effort to change it is too high, considering it won't make a difference.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2016, 11:32:32 pm »
What do you mean by "it won't make a difference"? A good WM will make a big difference, and right now we need one more than ever. There's already very few people who are willing to help.

Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2016, 09:46:15 am »
Because contribution is connected to affiliation.

If somebody already is in the wm team, or somebody close to the developer, wants to make a wm, then that will be the wm.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2016, 01:49:43 pm »
If "affiliation" was really a factor - we'd have nothing accomplished whatsoever. It's already hard enough to find someone who's willing to actually do something, it'd be incredibly stupid to add even more obstacles to that.

This "affiliation" you're speaking of is just basic communication - you gotta say what your plans are, ask what the guidelines are, and occasionally report your progress. If you don't even do this much - of course there's a good chance your work won't meet the requirements and won't make it in.

That's what the new WM guy did, and he's just a community member like most of us, with the only difference being that he did something instead of complaining. Heck, that's what most of our devs are from and that's how they became devs in the first place, in case you've forgotten. People just made good stuff.

Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2016, 02:18:46 pm »
He got wm development tools, and got admin for the gathers. I believe he could beta test the wms in the gather channels.
That's a lot more than just "community" member.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2016, 10:48:24 pm »
Yeah, because he joined the public IRC channel, asked, and offered to help, not because he's a special snowflake. Because he was serious about helping - it was common sense to provide him with tools necessary to work more effectively, and he wasn't the only one by far. It's simple teamwork - you help others, and others help you.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2016, 11:48:20 am »
ginn, I'm a huge fan of the ~20% overall damage reduction, but not of largely reduced movement acc or spread on most autos

Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2016, 04:32:25 am »
ginn, I'm a huge fan of the ~20% overall damage reduction, but not of largely reduced movement acc or spread on most autos
movement acc and spread is just adding RNG, and practically making it impossible properly.

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2016, 08:15:08 am »
My WM.

....

Ruger added bink, higher modifier for HS, lower modifier for leg/torso. It'll no longer guarantee kill in 2 hits, instead requires both shots to HS to 2 hit kill, otherwise it's always 3 hit kill. Might be UP, but better than OP.

LAW has no start up time, but has bink, and longer fireinterval. The intent is to avoid the "law why you no shoot" bug.



Not that I thought anyone would anyway... But I guess that, indeed, nobody were listening... :—

- Stop using WM as a way to fix bugs or whatever shit people feels needed "fixing" — You can headshot people with a ruger (a gun that get the most out of the current situation) by being directly under them a full screen height away and shoot upward at their ass; a massive balance change were made to fix the effects of "better netcode" is already dumb enough as it is, don't add more to it.

The LAW thing ain't even a bug; it fires every single time if you hold the trigger for the require amount of time while keep your arse firmly on the ground until it fires— something which fails surprisingly often in the less than-ideal-situation, which, basically, is most of the time people use it.


With the above glaring fault out of the way: the Socom changes is almost spot-on!  8)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 08:17:23 am by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline homerofgods

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2016, 10:07:19 am »
I'm for an overall dmg reduction as well

Offline darDar

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2016, 11:57:09 am »
There'll be further dmg reduction and I'll try to publish some docs on the weekend so ppl. can see behind the curtain and understand better how mechanics work.
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2016, 01:40:02 pm »
Please, please consider getting rid of most of the spread. It's just so much enjoyable without it.

Try these values:

MP5:
BulletSpread=0.5

AK:
BulletSpread=0.01

Steyr:
BulletSpread=0.03

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2016, 02:57:07 pm »
There'll be further dmg reduction

Wait.. The effect of the last dmg reduction aren't even kick in yet (the overall dmg is actually higher or at least the same as before cuz of the new collisions) and you already plan for even more?!  :o


Regardless... Trying to slow down the gameplay (or more precisely, getting killed by certain weapon/playstyle) using only cuts to dmg, without any change to other aspect of engagement (like how nade work, mobility, and the like), is imo a misguided way to do it:— autos are very resilient to a dmg change and a couple more bullets to kill won't going to change anything much, so you'll need to nerf it even more, and it's very easy to overdo it once you're at that point and it will in all likelyhood ended up too weak compared to semi/one shot, and you CANNOT nerf semi to make it more compareable to the nerfed autos since semi are extremely sensitive to dmg change...

Even if this problem is somehow miraculously overcome, I don't really see what exactly is the benefit of this whole thing at all to the game— can someone even tell what it is you people trying to do?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:14:27 am by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline machina

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2016, 03:45:00 pm »
autos are very resilient to a dmg change and a couple more bullets to kill won't going to change anything much, so you'll need to nerf it even more...
Won't change anything except from giving an enemy player one more shot with his one-shot-one-kill weapon.

I am strongly against nerfing overall damage with no other reasonable balancing changes as it is only going to harm autos and really do nothing to semi/one-shot weapons.

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2016, 12:01:44 am »
Won't change anything except from giving an enemy player one more shot with his one-shot-one-kill weapon.




You said it, not me!

And I was trying to be discreet about the whole thing...   :P

I still don't see why people would feel the need to drasticly alter weapon stat (beside boredom); the one in 1.7 is fine, just buff Ruger a bit, Nerf Minigun a lot, and some change to Saw, LAW, and Socom, and maybe some minor but meaningful tweaks to various weapon (EX: -10 reload, +10 fireinterval for M79) and it's good, or at least better than before.

Also, let me remind some of you people here that some people out there have an opinion that Realistic mode is better than Normal because you can't kill shit in normal unless you use 1 shot-kill weapon... Please don't do this sort of thing on a whim and feelings without a good reason;—you are ruining it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:05:35 am by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline ginn

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2016, 06:06:55 am »
At the moment there's barely any difference between (old, I guess) realistic, and normal, in terms of time to kill.
You die from like 6 hits or something.

Damage needs to be nerfed because the kill times are way too low.
Also, autos are dominating the scene. Even with how massively OP ruger is, it's not played as much as autos.